Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:41 pm

So you are now arguing that Holy paladins and Ret paladins will NOT take the improved version of their spells?

I'm saying that in a 3 paladin set up, it's more efficient to lose 9mp5 to gain more mp5 via spirit/int in kings ( or get a warrior to do +ap).
Obviously, a 2 holy 1 prot 1 ret set up is ideal. I've stated before a 4 paladin raid set up is superior, and almost necessary for getting required healers in a raid, anyway.

Just because we have a mandatory talent in bosanc, does not alleviate the fact that we still need 25 points in the top five tiers. The absolutely 100% required skills by all prot paladins (not counting kings) only take up 19 of those points.

Actually, prot requires 3 points spent below tier 6 on "non-required" talents when you include improved devotion - there's really no equivalent for the armor gain.
So the opportunity cost of kings is really only two talent points due to the construction of the tree. Three if our 11 point talent turns into a "must have".

This is a misunderstanding caused by narrowing your focus too much. The opportunity cost of casting BoK is BoS. The opportunity cost of speccing BoK is 5 talent points. Therefore, the act of a prot paladin using BoK has an opportunity cost of 6 talent points. The difference is "spec" and "use." It costs holy/ret 5 talent points to spec kings. The opportunity cost of casting kings is casting an un-buffed wisdom/might. As this takes no talent points, casting kings has an opportunity cost of 5 talent points.
Anyway.
So the opportunity cost of kings is really only two talent points due to the construction of the tree. Three if our 11 point talent turns into a "must have".

Threat is going to be "less of an issue." This is not "not an issue." They are two very distinctly different things.

Point 2 is picking on an example of a situation that would be comparable to us. Sure 3% mitigation is not the same as 3% crit, but it is a similar style nerf. The 3% crit for a holy paladin helps them in every way to do the thing that they are in the raid for. The only reason a holy paladin should give it up is if they are the only paladin in the raid, or the only paladins in the raid are holy.

Except Sanctuary can be cast on the raid. By taking kings, the paladin has effectively contributed to 3% damage reduction on all raid members. This is far more than a holy paladin could do with 1.5% average healing gain.

My real point is that a holy paladin has to sacrifice more than you for a buff which mostly benefits you which you can just as easily pick up.

Again, the only thing a singular holy paladin sacrifices is 3% crit.

Remember Sanctuary is also a threat resource generation tool - its benefits extend beyond just mitigation. It also provides a resource for holy shield in reduced resource scenarios - thus effectively even more mitigation.
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Postby Drathian » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:42 pm

Kaienn wrote:
Drathian wrote:
the extra block rating from imp BoM


Since when?


Extra STR = Extra Block VALUE... not Rating.


That was my point, BoM is AP, not strength.

Therefore no mitigation at all.

EDIT AGAIN:

Except Sanctuary can be cast on the raid. By taking kings, the paladin has effectively contributed to 3% damage reduction on all raid members. This is far more than a holy paladin could do with 1.5% average healing gain.


This: we want to be casting Sanctuary on the entire raid. 3% less damage across the board >>>>>> 1.5% increase in healing.

Try getting grace on that many people.
Last edited by Drathian on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kaienn » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:43 pm

Drathian wrote:
Kaienn wrote:
Drathian wrote:
the extra block rating from imp BoM


Since when?


Extra STR = Extra Block VALUE... not Rating.


That was my point, BoM is AP, not strength.

Therefore no mitigation at all.


...I knew that :o

I'm tired. I expect this thread to be super long tomorrow morning so I'm not bored in class!
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Postby kurros » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:44 pm

Knaughty wrote:Frequently Argued Topic is Frequently Argued.

My last thread on this topic ended up in 14 pages of Vitriol until I got Lore to lock it.


LOL! Got Lore to lock it? More like you started posting pure BS and flaming me while lying about what blizzard posters have said until Lore locked it to prevent you making yourself look like a huge idiot.


My opinion remains the same. If you are a sub-par raider and are happy with the second best buffs, go ahead and spec Kings and lose out on Sanctuary. If you want to be the best possible tank, you are going to need Sanctuary for extra 3% mitigation and mana return.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:47 pm

Why is this topic so controversial?! Dang. No need to yell or make fun of each other.
I rule.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:48 pm

kurros wrote:Frequently Argued Topic is
My opinion remains the same. If you are a sub-par raider and are happy with the second best buffs, go ahead and spec Kings and lose out on Sanctuary. If you want to be the best possible tank, you are going to need Sanctuary for extra 3% mitigation and mana return.

Please stay on topic and refrain from "aggressive" writing. While your snip from him was unnecessary, feeding such is equally unnecessary. Please don't reply to this.
Last edited by Elsie on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Drathian » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:49 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Why is this topic so controversial?! Dang. No need to yell or make fun of each other.


I don't want to go to bed.

Mountain Dew tastes gewd.

The only reason I'm still here.
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Postby Mishdorf » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:49 pm

Kaienn wrote:
Mishdorf wrote:
1. Yes, 3% crit is more mp5. It's also roughly 1.5% more healing done.

2. 1.5% more healing done is in No Way Imaginable comparable to 3% damage reduction. Firstly, DR is proactive and Healing is reactive. Secondly, it's twice as effective.

3. This is and always has been true. It also really has no bearing on who should spec for kings with multiple paladins - of which you can assure in 25 mans. All theory done is generally for 25 mans.


Point 1 is maths.


What kind of "Maths"?

I'm very curious to see how a holy paladin will suffer as much as you say they will without 3% crit.


I didn't say his maths was wrong. 3% crit is 1.5% more healing per second on average and for paladins it's also a lot of mp5. In a progression fight it could be the difference between getting that last few seconds worth of heals off to keep the tank up vs wiping.

What difference does Molten Armour make to a mage? What difference does Beserker stance make for a warrior (ok, I admit some of their abilities are activated in this stance)? 3% crit is a noticeable difference.
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Postby kurros » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:53 pm

Mishdorf wrote:
I didn't say his maths was wrong. 3% crit is 1.5% more healing per second on average and for paladins it's also a lot of mp5.


No it's not. It's far less than 1.5% more healing per second "on average".

Unless you are under healing on a regular basis, most of your crit heals are just going to be extra over healing, and wasted.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Mishdorf » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:55 pm

Kaienn wrote:
Drathian wrote:
the extra block rating from imp BoM


Since when?


Extra STR = Extra Block VALUE... not Rating.


Yes, the fail with my ret talents is strong today. Need more coffee.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:55 pm

Mishdorf wrote:Don't forget that bosanc can be provided by priests now if necessary, and that with the extra block rating from imp BoM, even if it's us+holy pally the maths works out nearly the same on damage mitigated with BoK+BoM vs BoK+BoS, at least at early levels of raiding.


Sorry I missed your point about stoicism, still you didn't really address the other point, which was the most important, a prot pally having kings does not provide for proper coverage of buffs. It's easy enough for prot to get, but someone else should still have it.

At the moment, suggesting a priest will supply 3% mitigation, is rather illogical since they have to stack it 3 times and it only lasts for 8 seconds. They can really only keep it on one tank, and even 10 man naxx often uses 2 tanks. Further, if the logic of a holy pally not getting it is that it gimps their spec, then you can quadruple that for a Disc Priest at the moment.

The sacrifice isn't huge for a holy pally, it's not that big for a ret pally, and it's fairly easy for prot to get, but prot alone can't solve the problem.

In any event, as I figured, this thread has hit the flame fest category and will now be locked. Sufficed to say though, kings is not a mandatory prot talent.
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