Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby Mishdorf » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:18 pm

Since my last thread was locked, I've created one a little less confrontational.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAzgzzhVuMxRtaZVcbx

Note what is not picked - 3/3 sanctified seals. 3% crit is too great of a sacrifice for a holy pally - nerfed heals and nerfed mana regen.

At least four points are needed in the holy tree between imp loh, imp wis, aura mastery and imp conc.

A fair comparison for prot pallies would be for us not to pick up the 3% mitigation in Shield of the Templar. Noone would expect us to nerf ourselves in such a heavy way to enable them to have a few more big numbers.

This is why, unless you can 100% guarantee a ret pally or another prot pally in the raid, not picking kings is a foolish thing to do.

And remember, if you raid you WILL be running 10 man raids quite regularly in wotlk and there WILL be a healer shortage.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAzgMzhVuMxRtZVcbx0h will be the base holy build in wotlk.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZatVA0uMteIoroxo will be the base protection build. Notice how many more points are spare in the prot build than the holy build. And that is assuming that we get an 11 point talent (which is what the point in stoicism is representing).

People who want to drop kings to do more dps should drop protection and spec ret, in which case they will take kings anyway. Protection never has and never will be a dps spec, and trying to make it so at the cost of your survivability (by nerfing others in the raid no less) is just dumb.
Image

"mana efficiency is for people who aren't tanking enough mobs" - Knaughty
Mishdorf
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:11 pm

Re: Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby vyaine » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:26 pm

Mishdorf wrote:Since my last thread was locked, I've created one a little less confrontational.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAzgzzhVuMxRtaZVcbx

Note what is not picked - 3/3 sanctified seals. 3% crit is too great of a sacrifice for a holy pally - nerfed heals and nerfed mana regen.

At least four points are needed in the holy tree between imp loh, imp wis, aura mastery and imp conc.

A fair comparison for prot pallies would be for us not to pick up the 3% mitigation in Shield of the Templar. Noone would expect us to nerf ourselves in such a heavy way to enable them to have a few more big numbers.

This is why, unless you can 100% guarantee a ret pally or another prot pally in the raid, not picking kings is a foolish thing to do.

And remember, if you raid you WILL be running 10 man raids quite regularly in wotlk and there WILL be a healer shortage.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAzgMzhVuMxRtZVcbx0h will be the base holy build in wotlk.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZatVA0uMteIoroxo will be the base protection build. Notice how many more points are spare in the prot build than the holy build. And that is assuming that we get an 11 point talent (which is what the point in stoicism is representing).

People who want to drop kings to do more dps should drop protection and spec ret, in which case they will take kings anyway. Protection never has and never will be a dps spec, and trying to make it so at the cost of your survivability (by nerfing others in the raid no less) is just dumb.


I'm sorry but your "base prot spec" doesn't even include our talent to reduce 6% of all spell damage done to us. you then go on to say that we shouldn't take things that cost us our survivability. I'm sorry but that just seems a little redundant to me.
vyaine
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:03 pm

Postby Sunstrider » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:32 pm

To the OP, dude spec however you want, I think you are completely wrong. Also the bigger question is if we spec for kings and sanctuary, how are we gonna give ourselves both buffs??? Oh so as a tank we should give up having kings placed on us, or we should be giving up 3% melee/spell mitigation. I'm sure the rest will rip you apart, and this thread will also get locked.
Image
Sunstrider
 
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:49 pm

Postby guillex » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:33 pm

No bubblewall, 2/3 SotT ... NO GbtL ...

This isn't a cookie-cutter/base build... This is an "I'm angry that not everyone is going to take Kings anymore, that people are deviating from what's going on right now, so I'm going to keep at the old stuff."

Everything is changing. If you're not going to, that's fine. But don't TELL us that what you think is going to be base will be base.

And DEFINITELY don't get pissed off when people go against what you think. That's what forums are for. Debates.

At this stage of the xpac/patch game, NOTHING IS CERTAIN NOR FINAL.

So chill out.
Póg mo thóin
Image
User avatar
guillex
Moderator
 
Posts: 7490
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Postby olorin00 » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:34 pm

No we shouldnt. Because if we are the only palatank, we will put Bosanc over BoK on any tank (and tanks are the ones that really need BoK). Result: 5 talent points wasted on king.

And we arent skiping king to make more dps but to take more threat and mitigation talent.

Anyway the only way to buff king on everyone (and more importantly on the tanks) is that a holy or retri take it. Exept if there is 2 palatank on every raid, but there is not much raids that will have that.
Feanorr - 70 protec - Kirin Tor
olorin00
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:29 pm

Postby gmf1 » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:38 pm

Yea the main idea why ret/holy should get kings is they cant get sanctuary, if your doing 25's and have more than 1 prot pally then sure, but if your only guna have 2 pallys then the prot spec should have sanc. Think about it before making such statements.
Image
User avatar
gmf1
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:55 am
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia

Re: Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby Mishdorf » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:41 pm

vyaine wrote:
I'm sorry but your "base prot spec" doesn't even include our talent to reduce 6% of all spell damage done to us. you then go on to say that we shouldn't take things that cost us our survivability. I'm sorry but that just seems a little redundant to me.


Yes you're right, it doesn't, but not every fight has spell damage and there are NINE FREE POINTS in this build.

Guillex wrote:No bubblewall, 2/3 SotT ... NO GbtL ...

This isn't a cookie-cutter/base build... This is an "I'm angry that not everyone is going to take Kings anymore, that people are deviating from what's going on right now, so I'm going to keep at the old stuff."

Everything is changing. If you're not going to, that's fine. But don't TELL us that what you think is going to be base will be base.

And DEFINITELY don't get pissed off when people go against what you think. That's what forums are for. Debates.

At this stage of the xpac/patch game, NOTHING IS CERTAIN NOR FINAL.

So chill out.


No, it's a BASE spec. Bubblewall is available baseline. The talent you are refering to is an offspec talent.

Bear in mind, there is still NINE FREE POINTS in the prot spec I linked.

olorin00 wrote:No we shouldnt. Because if we are the only palatank, we will put Bosanc over BoK on any tank (and tanks are the ones that really need BoK). Result: 5 talent points wasted on king.

And we arent skiping king to make more dps but to take more threat and mitigation talent.

Anyway the only way to buff king on everyone (and more importantly on the tanks) is that a holy or retri take it. Exept if there is 2 palatank on every raid, but there is not much raids that will have that.


Wrong in progression content. 10% stam/strength > 3% mitigation. You have plenty of points to reach every mitigation talent of worth by 80, including PoJ.

gmf1 wrote:Yea the main idea why ret/holy should get kings is they cant get sanctuary, if your doing 25's and have more than 1 prot pally then sure, but if your only guna have 2 pallys then the prot spec should have sanc. Think about it before making such statements.


Hi Ant :). Progression content is progression. Kings is the best progression tanking buff castable by paladins.
Last edited by Mishdorf on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image

"mana efficiency is for people who aren't tanking enough mobs" - Knaughty
Mishdorf
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:11 pm

Re: Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:45 pm

Mishdorf wrote:<edits for clarity>
1.Note what is not picked - 3/3 sanctified seals. 3% crit is too great of a sacrifice for a holy pally - nerfed heals and nerfed mana regen.
At least four points are needed in the holy tree between imp loh, imp wis, aura mastery and imp conc.

2. A fair comparison for prot pallies would be for us not to pick up the 3% mitigation in Shield of the Templar.

3. This is why, unless you can 100% guarantee a ret pally or another prot pally in the raid, not picking kings is a foolish thing to do.

4. And remember, if you raid you WILL be running 10 man raids quite regularly in wotlk and there WILL be a healer shortage.

5. People who want to drop kings to do more dps should drop protection and spec ret, in which case they will take kings anyway. Protection never has and never will be a dps spec, and trying to make it so at the cost of your survivability (by nerfing others in the raid no less) is just dumb.

Okay, fixed it up a bit. Responses
1. Yes, 3% crit is more mp5. It's also roughly 1.5% more healing done.

2. 1.5% more healing done is in No Way Imaginable comparable to 3% damage reduction. Firstly, DR is proactive and Healing is reactive. Secondly, it's twice as effective.

3. This is and always has been true. It also really has no bearing on who should spec for kings with multiple paladins - of which you can assure in 25 mans. All theory done is generally for 25 mans.

4. Even if 10 mans are regular, they are not balanced around kings. To do so would require every raid to bring a paladin.

5. This doesn't even make any sense. More damage is, by definition, more threat for paladins. Keeping threat is a part of the tank's job as much as surviving.

You also fail to consider that kings has a higher cost for protection to take. Blessing of Kings is essentially a 6 point talent for protection since they -have- to take blessing of sanctuary. It's 5 points for all other specs. If a holy paladin can take kings, it frees them from improved blessing of wisdom - this is a trade off.

Furthermore, your tank spec gives up 6% spell mitigation along with divine guardian / "quicker interrupt." This is largely considered a failure since they would also lose the 3% mitigation from sanctuary if they must do kings.

So, in essence, it's false to say you reduce mitigation or effectiveness by holy speccing kings. In fact, you lose 6% spell mitigation, 3% overall mitigation, mana efficiency, and possibly Imp. LoH for one healer doing 1.5% more healing.
Indeed, it's more accurate to say a holy paladin should spec kings as they are likely to gain more mp5 from king's int through illumination, replenishment, and other talents than with Imp Wisdom (9mp5).
Last edited by Elsie on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby Drathian » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:48 pm

Mishdorf wrote: a little less confrontational.


Mishdorf wrote: not picking kings is a foolish thing to do.


Mishdorf wrote: People who want to drop kings to do more dps should drop protection and spec ret


Mishdorf wrote: Protection never has and never will be a dps spec, and trying to make it so at the cost of your survivability (by nerfing others in the raid no less) is just dumb.


Facepalm?

In any case, 3% mitigation is in a completely different world than 3% Spellcrit, which isn't even close to 3% increased healing.

I won't be picking up Kings just because you're telling me I'm stupid if I don't pick up Kings. Thanks for the free 5 points.

Edit: That said, the real reason I won't be taking it is that I have absolutely ZERO need to pick it up, as I'll be gauranteed to have it since we have a Ret paladin with 99% raid attendance and another Holy that'll be taking Kings anyway.

Like we need kings for 5-man/heroic content anyway.
Last edited by Drathian on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Drathian
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:01 am

Re: Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby vyaine » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:51 pm

Mishdorf wrote:
Wrong in progression content. 10% stam/strength > 3% mitigation. You have plenty of points to reach every mitigation talent of worth by 80, including PoJ.


how exactly do you consider a disarm reduction and slight speed increase mitigation, have you even read some of the new talents?
vyaine
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:03 pm

Re: Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby Mishdorf » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:52 pm

Elsie wrote:4. Even if 10 mans are regular, they are not balanced around kings. To do so would require every raid to bring a paladin.

5. This doesn't even make any sense. More damage is, by definition, more threat for paladins.

You also fail to consider that kings has a higher cost for protection to take. Blessing of Kings is essentially a 6 point talent for protection since they -have- to take blessing of sanctuary. It's 5 points for all other specs. If a holy paladin can take kings, it frees them from improved blessing of wisdom - this is a trade off.


Snipped uncontroversial bits.

On point 4. Just because they will not be balanced around kings does not mean that kings will not make progression easier. IMO making progression easier is a VERY GOOD THING(tm).

Point 5. Threat is not an issue in WotLK. Yes, damage = threat, but a) threat isn't an issue in WotLK at the moment, b) Kings gives both threat and survivability and c) dead tanks do no threat (I know this is technically point b but it's such an important point that it needed mentioning twice).

EDIT: Kings is always 5 points for everyone. Ret pallys will be getting Imp BoM and Kings, Holy pallies who get it will also likely be getting imp BoW as well. No pally will have untalented blessings.
Last edited by Mishdorf on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

"mana efficiency is for people who aren't tanking enough mobs" - Knaughty
Mishdorf
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:11 pm

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:52 pm

Frequently Argued Topic is Frequently Argued.

My last thread on this topic ended up in 14 pages of Vitriol until I got Lore to lock it.

You're not going to convince the "special people" who think that Holy should get Kings so they can spec something else. Why try?

Image
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

No

Postby Lother » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:54 pm

I will not be picking up Kings; here is my build

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVAfuMteIRGoxf00b (Last point reserved for an 11 point talent if we ever get one)

We don't have a charge or any real way to close gaps quickly, I will not be giving up persuit of justice. HoJ is now an inturrupt, which means it needs to be talented to be anywhere near useful. The only points here that are meh are the ones in Divine guardian, but those 2 points will give what? 2/5 BoK? No thanks
Last edited by Lother on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Lother
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:23 pm

Re: Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby Mishdorf » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:54 pm

vyaine wrote:
Mishdorf wrote:
Wrong in progression content. 10% stam/strength > 3% mitigation. You have plenty of points to reach every mitigation talent of worth by 80, including PoJ.


how exactly do you consider a disarm reduction and slight speed increase mitigation, have you even read some of the new talents?


Point taken, I'd forgotten that the 3% spell miss was removed from the talent.
Image

"mana efficiency is for people who aren't tanking enough mobs" - Knaughty
Mishdorf
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:11 pm

Re: Holy pallies should never get kings - you should

Postby Drathian » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:55 pm

Mishdorf wrote:Point 5. Threat is not an issue in WotLK. Yes, damage = threat, but a) threat isn't an issue in WotLK at the moment, b) Kings gives both threat and survivability and c) dead tanks do no threat (I know this is technically point b but it's such an important point that it needed mentioning twice).


Threat IS still an issue. As specs improve, DPSing gear improves, DPS rotations are finalized, and we see more raid content, DPS'ers will begin riding the threat line.

If they were going to make threat useless, they would have removed it.
Image
Drathian
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:01 am

Next

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest