Improved judgement 1/2 or 2/2 with wotlk?

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Postby Elsie » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:38 pm

Norrath wrote:Well, yes -- but you'll hold aggro even if you slack. Spam ShoR and Consecration and refresh SoV every two minutes and I imagine you're pretty much set -- but everyone'll know you're slacking. Your DPS will be abysmal compared to a tank who's doing his job with enthusiasm.

That's how a good tank will be judged in Wrath -- on his DPS and his ability to stay alive. Holding threat really isn't a concern.

Well then, yes, but our TPS is directly derived from our DPS ;). All the more reason for an optimal cycle, too!
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Postby Mneme » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:39 pm

Jensaarai wrote:1/2


0/2 makes me cringe in 969, and 2/2 is pointless.


2/2 is not pointless at all. It gives you an 11% faster Judgement when compared to 1/2. It is very useful for picking up loose mobs, adds, etc. You are not going to be spending 100% of your time mashing a macro in front of a boss, think outside the box a little bit here.
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Postby Mneme » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:42 pm

Elsie wrote:
Mneme wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Norrath wrote:Blizzard HAS said threat shouldn't be as much of a concern -- it's their new philosophy. (I'd quote GC, but I can't remember where the post's from.)

I read this as "as much of a concern" not "not a concern." Your threat will still be bad if you slack or require plenty of movement (or other various jumps through hoops).


Yeah, and that's no different from how anything else functions honestly. Movement lowers TPS, DPS, HPS.

Many movement do not lower DPS.


The only threat you absolutely lose while moving is from lost Consecration ticks. The threat that is "probably" lost while moving is from a disrupted cycle due to concentrating more on your position and less on the buttons you're pressing, as well as the possibility of the mob you are kiting being out of melee range for intervals.
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Elsie wrote:Keep the flames and trolling out the thread please. There's no indication that threat won't be a concern on release or in uldum. >_>


I don't think I'm flaming anyone. I was just sharing my opinion :)

I enjoy theory crafting as much as anyone, it just seems like a lot of effort given that wrath isn't even released yet and things are still subject to change, and as things currently stand maximum threat is not needed.

As far as tanks being measured by the DPS they provide, I hope that is how things turn out, but that isn't always the best measure of what is good practices. In vanilla wow I could out dps anyone when I two-handed tanked on a warrior, but it did make healing me a little bit difficult :P
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:45 pm

Mneme wrote:
Jensaarai wrote:1/2


0/2 makes me cringe in 969, and 2/2 is pointless.


2/2 is not pointless at all. It gives you an 11% faster Judgement when compared to 1/2. It is very useful for picking up loose mobs, adds, etc. You are not going to be spending 100% of your time mashing a macro in front of a boss, think outside the box a little bit here.
With instacast AS, 8 sec no gcd taunt, and hammer to punch if it's in melee, killing a talent point for a single second that you will frequently not use is fail. Think outside the box a little bit here.
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Postby Mneme » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:52 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:
Mneme wrote:
Jensaarai wrote:1/2


0/2 makes me cringe in 969, and 2/2 is pointless.


2/2 is not pointless at all. It gives you an 11% faster Judgement when compared to 1/2. It is very useful for picking up loose mobs, adds, etc. You are not going to be spending 100% of your time mashing a macro in front of a boss, think outside the box a little bit here.
With instacast AS, 8 sec no gcd taunt, and hammer to punch if it's in melee, killing a talent point for a single second that you will frequently not use is fail. Think outside the box a little bit here.


I have found myself frequently using Judgement on cooldown when MT/OTing Sartharion, and in most 5man and heroic dungeons. I'm going beyond the theorycrafting here and basing my opinion off of actual experience, which is unfortunately one of this forum's weak areas. The ability to get out a semi-ranged pickup move faster is something I consider invaluable as a tank.

I plan on using a build similar to this one, possibly switching out Heart of the Crusader with Imp Might depending on raid setup (3 floater points currently):
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVAcuMteIRGoxf00b
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Postby Elsie » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:57 pm

I have found myself frequently using Judgement on cooldown when MT/OTing Sartharion, and in most 5man and heroic dungeons. I'm going beyond the theorycrafting here and basing my opinion off of actual experience, which is unfortunately one of this forum's weak areas. The ability to get out a semi-ranged pickup move faster is something I consider invaluable as a tank.

I'll agree it can be useful when you're not in a situation to regain enough mana to use Consecrate reliably.

I dont think, from experience, losing 2 seconds on one of several (righteous defense, exorcism, holy wrath, HoTR, avenger's shield, judgement, hammer of justice, technically consecrate) will hamper us. Actually, most of our abilities are 10-30 yards.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:01 pm

At 80, one talent point isn't a great waste, you're only losing out on 3% seal/judge damage. If you prefer it, that's fine. But realistically I don't think you'll see a benefit, if you're picking up loose mobs you should be using something every GCD to hang onto them which means either you spend .5s getting the range advantage of judgement or you spend 1.5s on something with tangible threat.

0/2 is acceptable, but not ideal. Lag should not interrupt our rotations very much considering the amount of haste buffs flying around in raids. On an undead/demon boss you can certainly Exorcism in every spot that a Judgement is but I believe Exorcism is less damage than JoV at the moment. On a different creature type you can AS every other CD and have one free GCD every 36 seconds which in practice would probably only gain you a free HotR from not having to skip it to reseal. Unless you plan on doing something non threat related with your extra GCD every 18sec, it's worth picking up 1/2. It's not like you're wasting points in Deflection to get to it.

As for threat not mattering, yes, well, you'll notice that some of us theorycrafters are very unhappy about that. I'm counting on things not staying that way, and I am committed to keeping people informed so that in case it stays the same, we don't all regress into facerolling nincompoopery.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:05 pm

0/2 is acceptable, but not ideal. Lag should not interrupt our rotations very much considering the amount of haste buffs flying around in raids. On an undead/demon boss you can certainly Exorcism in every spot that a Judgement is but I believe Exorcism is less damage than JoV at the moment. On a different creature type you can AS every other CD and have one free GCD every 36 seconds which in practice would probably only gain you a free HotR from not having to skip it to reseal. Unless you plan on doing something non threat related with your extra GCD every 18sec, it's worth picking up 1/2. It's not like you're wasting points in Deflection to get to it.

With 0/2 it seems you lose one second every 30 seconds if you do not use a GCD.
This means over 2 minutes, you have 3 seconds of time where you're not doing anything in particular (120/30 -1 for reseal). This also assumes the boss is not undead so you cannot holy wrath and exorcism. It also assumes you can't use that CD for something tangible like Hand of Sacrifice, Sacred Shield, etc.

Basically I'd say it is ideal. However, 1/2 can be ideal also. It's more a matter of what you're seeking to accomplish.
Last edited by Elsie on Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mneme » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:05 pm

Elsie wrote:I'll agree it can be useful when you're not in a situation to regain enough mana to use Consecrate reliably.

I dont think, from experience, losing 2 seconds on one of several (righteous defense, exorcism, holy wrath, HoTR, avenger's shield, judgement, hammer of justice, technically consecrate) will hamper us. Actually, most of our abilities are 10-30 yards.


Well, another part of my decision is that I enjoy Pursuit of Justice and have found that I don't need to give up any vital tanking talents to get it. With 2/2 Judgement being on the way it makes both decisions easier. Obviously folks are going to pick the talents that best suit their playstyle, I just don't agree with calling 2 points in this talent "pointless" because it does have its applications.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:07 pm

Mneme wrote:
Elsie wrote:I'll agree it can be useful when you're not in a situation to regain enough mana to use Consecrate reliably.

I dont think, from experience, losing 2 seconds on one of several (righteous defense, exorcism, holy wrath, HoTR, avenger's shield, judgement, hammer of justice, technically consecrate) will hamper us. Actually, most of our abilities are 10-30 yards.


Well, another part of my decision is that I enjoy Pursuit of Justice and have found that I don't need to give up any vital tanking talents to get it. With 2/2 Judgement being on the way it makes both decisions easier. Obviously folks are going to pick the talents that best suit their playstyle, I just don't agree with calling 2 points in this talent "pointless" because it does have its applications.
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Postby Mneme » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:10 pm

PsiVen wrote:As for threat not mattering, yes, well, you'll notice that some of us theorycrafters are very unhappy about that. I'm counting on things not staying that way, and I am committed to keeping people informed so that in case it stays the same, we don't all regress into facerolling nincompoopery.


I think the blue quote is taken out of context, or perhaps worded poorly. Compared to Live, where keeping aggro against Sunwell DPS is an exercise in frustration, keeping aggro in Beta is a breeze. It's a LOT less frustrating, I no longer have to worry about every single GCD. I believe it's part of the movement to get more people tanking, and I like it. I get to worry more about positioning, what everyone else is doing, other fight mechanics, etc.
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Postby Sonic » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:44 pm

So for the math kiddies, how much are you actually losing out on when its 0/2 or 2/2? Min/maxing is fun and all but is it game breaking?
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Postby Jikozani » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:01 pm

Could someone provide the quote that states threat won't be as much of an issue because I remember quite the contrary - GC remarked that through tbc tanks would tend to focus on survivability only (concerning gear), but that was only half of their job.
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:03 pm

Jikozani wrote:Could someone provide the quote that states threat won't be as much of an issue because I remember quite the contrary - GC remarked that through tbc tanks would tend to focus on survivability only (concerning gear), but that was only half of their job.


I don't think there have been quotes from blue, I think the reason people assume threat won't be an issue is because in beta pug raids the tanks vastly out-threat the dps.

I take it all with a grain of salt, beta is beta, but there are many members here who swear by it as if it is set in stone.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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