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Let's talk Seals of the Pure

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Let's talk Seals of the Pure

Postby crabcrouton » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:07 am

My seals are terribad right now. Really low, lower than my 70 on live.

With that in mind, does it make any sense to take Seals of the Pure?
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=20332

What do you guys think?

If yes, can you show that it's at least 1% per talent point as most talents are "budgeted" (i.e. show that seals is 33% of your total threat so that 3% of that is 1% total threat increase per talent).

If No, can you show that there's another talent deviating from the cookie cutter where it'll make sense as an alternative?

I'm hoping to start some discussion on this with the goal that it gets testing by someone with more time than me atm (midterms). If it isn't being budgeted correctly with volley of Seals/Judgement nerfs that's been happening lately, maybe we can raise it as an issue.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:34 am

It would really help if you posted your proposed build...otherwise we have to guess.

Generally speaking in the 70 builds you aren't trading threat for threat...your trading threat for mitigation.

I would suggest you not worry about threat, and instead just focus on mitigation. (*Honestly threat was buffed enough that you should have no problems holding threat against simularly geared dps. Quite frankly even with every single threat talent you wouldn't hold threat off vastly overgeared dps anyway)

Edit:
Here's a good example build. The 3 points in Reckoning are optional and can easily be switched for 3points in Imp Hammer of Justice.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... 1533311321
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Postby crabcrouton » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:35 pm

I meant to talk more about the talent's budget and usefulness in relation to its cost.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:28 pm

There was a calculation somewhere. Out of my head:

Seal of the pure: +2,69% Damage. Big Advantage: Smoth. Every Proc of SoV will get stronger. Also Judgements of course. Scales very well with extra AP and extra SP.

5% Crit: +2,5% Damage. Random nature with crit. Does produce huge numbers. Big Plus is, also works with healing spells. And if you want to go even deeper into ret for even more TPS.

Reckoning. Less then 2%. Great in AoE. But gives only single target tps. Not great for SoV (which we use the most). Does get worse with more dodge/parry. Judgement of Wisdom has a 4 Sec internal cooldown. So even the extra mana does not work that good.

Pick you're poison.
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Postby crabcrouton » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:31 pm

Thanks Sarkan, that's precisely what I was looking for.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:47 pm

crabcrouton wrote:Thanks Sarkan, that's precisely what I was looking for.


I think PsiVen made that calculation, so the honor belongs to him.
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Postby Melathys » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:49 pm

I don't really see it fitting into a 70 build. Unless you want to skip 5% parry.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... 1533312321

will likely be my 70 build, though I may drop 1 point somewhere in prot to pick up 1/2 Imp.Judgements. Points in kings can be tossed around depending on other paladins in the raid...that would be my "I'm the only paladin in the raid" spec.
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Postby Questioner » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:00 pm

Seals have been nerfed since the original calculations done. You might want to verify that the number is still accurate.
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Postby Arnock » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:08 pm

I wouldn't get it at 70, but of Course I will at 80

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZ0xVAcuTteIRGoxo
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Postby Songblade » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:19 pm

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:There was a calculation somewhere. Out of my head:

Seal of the pure: +2,69% Damage. Big Advantage: Smoth. Every Proc of SoV will get stronger. Also Judgements of course. Scales very well with extra AP and extra SP.

5% Crit: +2,5% Damage. Random nature with crit. Does produce huge numbers. Big Plus is, also works with healing spells. And if you want to go even deeper into ret for even more TPS.

Reckoning. Less then 2%. Great in AoE. But gives only single target tps. Not great for SoV (which we use the most). Does get worse with more dodge/parry. Judgement of Wisdom has a 4 Sec internal cooldown. So even the extra mana does not work that good.

Pick you're poison.


Actually the 5% crit would be more than 2.5% damage.

You're assuming that every ability that we use crits for 1.5x damage, but in actuality, I believe Exorcism is the only spell that we use regularly that only crits for 1.5x damage.

It wouldn't quite be a 5% increase in dps, as Exorcism doesn't crit for double, and consecrate and holy shield do not crit at all, but I believe it would be more than 2.5%
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Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:38 pm

Dorvan or Psiven or someone ran the numbers.

1% crit is just under 0.5% TPS.

DPS aren't being capped, even when tanks spec pure mitigation. So don't spec TPS for the sake of speccing TPS. You can spec DPS if you want to grind/quest faster while soloing prot specced, but it isn't going to help you much in raids.

I'd wait till the two-spec thing is announced at Blizzcon next week. I'm expecting I'll end up with a mitigation heavy deep-prot build and a 0/10/61 PvE raid Ret build or even a 0/5/66 PvE/PvP "random DPS and battleground" build for having fun with.
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Postby Zumor » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:00 am

dont expect to much of that two-spec thing of blizzard
its crazy to balance to be good but not overpowered or useless,
they wont give you a "I can change every 10minutes my specc on the run" thing

to the topic:
seals of the pure wont be in my 70 specc, I prefer this
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... 1533312121
we wont have ShoR at 70, and I dont think we need to push HS or AS that much, I prefer the Imp. Devotion Aura
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Postby sherck » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:19 am

Zumor wrote:dont expect to much of that two-spec thing of blizzard
its crazy to balance to be good but not overpowered or useless,
they wont give you a "I can change every 10minutes my specc on the run" thing


I agree that it will not be uber, but I think it will be very useful to a Holy like myself.

I have an almost full set of Physical AP plate sitting in my bank...about 1/2 Kara gear and 1/2 level 70 blues or "...of the Bear" level 70 greens.

I will need to solo and quest when WoTLK comes out. Doing so as Holy is......slow. Doing so as Ret will be SO much faster.

I don't need to switch out every 10 minutes. I need to switch once or twice a day at max. If I need an instance, I join LFG and go grind/quest as Holy waiting for a group and suffer the slower kill rate. If I know that I don't need to do instances, I switch to Ret and progress some quests much faster. A pop-up instance comes up? Should still be able to throw on my Holy gear as Ret and heal it.

The 2 Spec thing will be a big boost to me as a Holy. I really love the idea.

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Postby Velgarn » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:54 am

I don't need to switch out every 10 minutes. I need to switch once or twice a day at max. If I need an instance, I join LFG and go grind/quest as Holy waiting for a group and suffer the slower kill rate. If I know that I don't need to do instances, I switch to Ret and progress some quests much faster. A pop-up instance comes up? Should still be able to throw on my Holy gear as Ret and heal it.


From what I understand every other class doesn't need this to solo grind. Druid / Shammy / Priest - all have adequate nuking spells with the spell power change, leaving holy paladins as the only ones out of luck.

I think another possible change would be to give holy a deep talent (or add to current ones) to convert spell dmg to attack power. As silly as it sounds, why not? Prot/ret have main stat -> spell dmg to help heals, holy should get main stat -> DPS to help solo grind.

Then again, I'd love to be able to switch specs. So whatever they do would make me happy, I just think fixing holy is a better solution than applying bandages. :lol:
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:10 am

Right, at 2k SP Holy Paladin can only do 1,5k DPS. Ret would be better. But heck, a Resto Druide can not dish out more or a lot more. Holy PvE Priest? Come on..

Maybe shaman, maybe.
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