I have a concern (dun dun dun)

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:34 am

Majiben wrote:Can a warrior/bear build secondary aggro better than us when left without a source of incoming damage? If yes then there might be a problem. DKs are odd since they are almost entirely self generating in their resources.

True enough, it does need to be considered relatively. I think I'm thinking in largely TBC terms where our maximum tps cycle was the only possible cycle available.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:56 am

Ulushnar wrote:And finally, i should correct a common misnomer: Intellect never helped our longevity as much as some people thought it did.

In my "threat" gear with a lot of +intellect, I still only have about 6k mana unbuffed. This is compared to about 4k naked. That extra 2k would help me squeeze out another cycle or two, but it wouldn't fix the basic problem, which is if I'm not getting hit hard enough, I'm not getting mana back.
.


You're doing it wrong.

Let's say you have 5k Mana buffed. Incoming Mana 120 Mana/Sec, Outgoing Mana 170 Mana/Sec.

50 Mana / Sec and you need 100 Sec to go oom

Let's bump it to 7k Mana buffed. Incoming Mana 120 Mana/Sec, Outgoing Mana 170 Mana/Sec.

And you need 140 Sec to go oom.

That is not one cycle or two. But 40 Seconds of a full dps cycle.

of course, don't stack int!

But it works different then most people think.

Going back to 5k, adding divine plea. 25% mana back per Minute. That is 1250 Mana / Min or 20,8 Mana / Sec.

Leaving not 50 Mana / Sec difference but 29,7 and you need 168 Sec to go OOM. You see, better then Int.
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Postby Norrath » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:18 am

Ulushnar is talking about an extra cycle or two without healing, which is perfectly accurate.
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Postby Ruex » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:23 am

Just from what I have tried on the PTR, which is the Same mechanics as the Beta I have not had any real issues when it comes to going OOM quickly. I have found that even though my mana pool is a few hundred less then on live (4800 vs 5600) I find I can go longer in a DPS cycle then before.

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Re: I have a concern (dun dun dun)

Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:55 am

Jarion wrote:Before you read, please note that I'm not QQing. I don't have a beta key and due to a number of circumstances don't use the test realms. So this is an attempt fact finding for me, not QQ.

<giggle> Try the PTR too =)
Jarion wrote:Been thinking about Wrath and how our tanking will work.

Thinking is good.
Jarion wrote:How much mana will we ultimately be using? Looking at the gear, I see that we are going to have a LOT less intellect, so our mana pools are going to be a lot smaller.

Our mana pool should sustain a couple zomgneedmoarthreat cycles, spamming all that we have. Maybe 2 and a half.
Jarion wrote:Now, everyone is trumpeting this new blessing of salvation as awesome...2% mana back on all kinds of evasion, which especially in AOE situations is just full of win.

Yup!!!
Jarion wrote:Then there is this super judgement thing where we lower the attack speed of the target, including bosses, that we have a judgement on.

Yup!!!
Jarion wrote:I initially wrote this out in a paragraph, but think it will be easier to display in point form.

- We're losing virtually all our int...so our mana pool is going to be tiny. 2% mana a pop is going to be far less mana than it would be now.

You'd be impressed by how much that accounts for. 2 blocks/avoids and you can pull another shield of righteousness.
Jarion wrote:- The boss will be hitting slower, so we that mana income will be even less. A reduction on an already tiny amount if you will.

If it wasn't an issue before, it won't be now.
Jarion wrote:- Our other source of mana income, SA, will get less effective as we stack pure evasion. With the bosses already hitting slower, SA income will be quite significantly reduced.

If it wasn't an issue before, it won't be now. Whenever we starve for mana while tanking, we already are ahead of the content anyway.
Jarion wrote:- Potion sickness means we can't keep using pots on CD to make up the difference.

Divine Please: 1 Minute CD, 25% mana. That's roughly 12 ShoRs, or a full threat cycle(not sure if consecration fits fully)
Jarion wrote:
So ya....I'm concerned about our mana in Wrath. What has the beta and test realm shown about it?
It shows we're doing great actually.



Also, remember that our mana inputs are many and variable. Replenishments, SA, Sanctuary, Divine Plea, Hand of Sacrifice(yay not overwriting blessings!), we now can always always judge wisdom for mana regen(without even having to worry about low judgment damage!) and so on. From the looks of it, running OOM will be relatively rare.

Suppose you are under a replenishment, Sanc and oom. HotR is 6% base mana. a lvl 70 belf prot pally has 4800~ mana, it's significantly more than base mana(2953). This means that HotR costs 177 mana. 2% total mana(sanct's regen) is 96 mana. 2 dodges and you can hammer again.
Replenishment is 0,25% total mana per second, or 12 mana per second. In ten seconds, how much damage do you think you will take? Add to that the fact that all of our attack table, except for miss, accounts for sanctuary regen, and we got 120~ mana from the replenishment, and the procs for JoW(another 110 mana), and you'll see that it's actually hard to go oom.
Last edited by Snake-Aes on Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:00 am

Secondary threat:

I've left out benediction as I've no intention of taking it.

mana out per second

Seal of Vengeance = (0.14*4114)/(9*13) = 4.92
Shield of Righteousness = (0.06*4114*0.7)/6 = 28.8
Hammer of the Righteous = (0.06*4114)/6 = 41.14
Judgement of Wisdom = (0.05*4114)/9 = 22.85
Avenger's Shield = (0.26*4114*0.7)/36 = 20.8
Avenging Wrath = (0.08*4114)/180 = 1.83

120.34 mana out per second or with a mana pool of 7808.35 (no int on gear, raid buffed), 64.9 seconds till oom. Consecration almost halves that time.

mana in per second

Divine Plea = (7808*0.25)/60 = 32.53
Replenishment = 0.0025*7808 = 19.52
BoW and Mana Spring = 38.84

90.89 mana in per second, leaving you with a deficit of 29.45 before Judgement of Wisdom. At 2% mana a proc, thats one every 5.3 seconds.

With the internal cd thats a bit of a stretch, but with pots, hand of sacrifice, loh etc, it's definitely coverable and indeed sustainable. You're losing in the region of 20% threat from cons and reactive sources.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:03 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:Secondary threat:

I've left out benediction as I've no intention of taking it.
There's that too! My spec samples, for example, include 4/5 benediction for PoJ (PoJ is oh-so-sexy).

We are actually one of the very few mana users that actually don't fear going oom.
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:03 am

Norrath wrote:Ulushnar is talking about an extra cycle or two without healing, which is perfectly accurate.


Listen to the Dane. He comes from the land of good bacon.

Since the OP's concern is maintaining threat with little-to-no mana income, then all the +Int in the world won't help with that. (Well maybe all the +Int in the world would help, but certainly no practical amount would).

If i'm ever getting 120 mana/sec back via SA, then it's in a situation where I'm taking at least 1200 unmitigated damage/sec. If that's the situation I'm in, then I'm not overly concerned with going OOM.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:06 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Secondary threat:

I've left out benediction as I've no intention of taking it.
There's that too! My spec samples, for example, include 4/5 benediction for PoJ (PoJ is oh-so-sexy).

We are actually one of the very few mana users that actually don't fear going oom.

True, I'd love to fit in PoJ, will miss it hugely, but at 7 points for speed...fiddly.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:09 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Secondary threat:

I've left out benediction as I've no intention of taking it.
There's that too! My spec samples, for example, include 4/5 benediction for PoJ (PoJ is oh-so-sexy).

We are actually one of the very few mana users that actually don't fear going oom.

True, I'd love to fit in PoJ, will miss it hugely, but at 7 points for speed...fiddly.
not 7, 6 if you don't find the point to benediction, and PoJ is now 2/2 instead of 3/3

5/5 Deflection, 1/2 Judgment. Need another 4 points. You could very well take 3/3 Heart of the Crusader(more useful is mana isn't an issue in first place) and a filler 1/5 Bene, and PoJ is available again. The only talent I miss picking up PoJ is Seals of the Pure.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:25 am

Snake-Aes wrote:The only talent I miss picking up PoJ is Seals of the Pure.

I have a tendency to always take measurable power gains over other types. That said, I have SotP down as about 4% threat, so if it turns out we're above whats actually required threatwise, PoJ is the way ahead.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:26 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:mana in per second

Divine Plea = (7808*0.25)/60 = 32.53
Replenishment = 0.0025*7808 = 19.52
BoW and Mana Spring = 38.84

90.89 mana in per second, leaving you with a deficit of 29.45 before Judgement of Wisdom. At 2% mana a proc, thats one every 5.3 seconds.

With the internal cd thats a bit of a stretch, but with pots, hand of sacrifice, loh etc, it's definitely coverable and indeed sustainable. You're losing in the region of 20% threat from cons and reactive sources.


So with Sac, LoH and Pots we are close to sustain. But that is really with ZERO AoE Splash damage. Most encounters have something, right?

Just stand in the cleave just once (with bubblewall on if you're a sissy) and good to go.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:40 am

Yeah, I'm assuming zero from SA there. Throw some splash about and you'll be dropping in cons.
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Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:09 am

What do people think of the SA glyph (2% additional mana return) for offtanking? Would it make a noticable difference (assuming Sacrifice and splash damage)?
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:11 am

KysenMurrin wrote:What do people think of the SA glyph (2% additional mana return) for offtanking? Would it make a noticable difference (assuming Sacrifice and splash damage)?
<shrug>
T6 + Glyph = SA returns 13% of the heal as mana. Unless we match some tough to sustain tanking somewhere, I don't see why use that.
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