I have a concern (dun dun dun)

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I have a concern (dun dun dun)

Postby Jarion » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:30 am

Before you read, please note that I'm not QQing. I don't have a beta key and due to a number of circumstances don't use the test realms. So this is an attempt fact finding for me, not QQ.

Been thinking about Wrath and how our tanking will work.

How much mana will we ultimately be using? Looking at the gear, I see that we are going to have a LOT less intellect, so our mana pools are going to be a lot smaller.

Now, everyone is trumpeting this new blessing of salvation as awesome...2% mana back on all kinds of evasion, which especially in AOE situations is just full of win.

Then there is this super judgement thing where we lower the attack speed of the target, including bosses, that we have a judgement on.

I initially wrote this out in a paragraph, but think it will be easier to display in point form.

- We're losing virtually all our int...so our mana pool is going to be tiny. 2% mana a pop is going to be far less mana than it would be now.

- The boss will be hitting slower, so we that mana income will be even less. A reduction on an already tiny amount if you will.

- Our other source of mana income, SA, will get less effective as we stack pure evasion. With the bosses already hitting slower, SA income will be quite significantly reduced.

- Potion sickness means we can't keep using pots on CD to make up the difference.


So ya....I'm concerned about our mana in Wrath. What has the beta and test realm shown about it?
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Re: I have a concern (dun dun dun)

Postby Rehlachs- » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:36 am

Jarion wrote:Now, everyone is trumpeting this new blessing of salvation as awesome...2% mana back on all kinds of evasion, which especially in AOE situations is just full of win.


Blessing of Sanctuary

- We're losing virtually all our int...so our mana pool is going to be tiny. 2% mana a pop is going to be far less mana than it would be now.


Base Mana != Total Mana

So ya....I'm concerned about our mana in Wrath. What has the beta and test realm shown about it?


http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=54428
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:37 am

You may have been thinking, but you haven't been reading before you thought. Most of this stuff has been covered in other threads. :)

First of all, we won't be stacking Avoidance. We can't. Check the threads on Diminishing Returns on Avoidance. Most endgame tanks are likely to hover around the 50% avoidance mark.

Even if we could stack avoidance, we have Blessing of Sanctuary, which returns mana on every Block, Parry and Dodge in Wrath.

On top of that, we have the new, scaling Judgement of Wisdom, and three different classes that can give the new mana returning Replenishment buff.

We'll be fine with just a basic mana pool.
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Postby Pizbit » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:39 am

Link to where it's officially stated bosses hit slower.
You're forgetting raid wide replenishment buffs.
Bosses still hit hard, and aoe damage etc.
Mana pool isn't a concern, you'll probably have int(or a felpuppy) to increase your mana pool. In fact it has never been a concern.
We wont be able to stack pure avoidance like we can now(diminishing returns) and SA will scale as well as it always has.
We will be judging with wisdom.
We get divine plea, 25% mana I think it is, once a minute.

Finally, I haven't heard of anyone complaining about mana yet.
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:46 am

And finally, i should correct a common misnomer: Intellect never helped our longevity as much as some people thought it did.

In my "threat" gear with a lot of +intellect, I still only have about 6k mana unbuffed. This is compared to about 4k naked. That extra 2k would help me squeeze out another cycle or two, but it wouldn't fix the basic problem, which is if I'm not getting hit hard enough, I'm not getting mana back.

Blessing of Salv and Divine Plea help my longevity in overgearing situations more than any amount of +Intellect would.
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Postby Jarion » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:51 am

Ah. Ok. Sorted then :D w00t!

Btw, when I mentioned bosses hitting slower I was talking about that judgement thingie that reduces the attack speed by 20%. No biggie though.




Cool...so mana won't be an issue really. Nice to know. Thanks for the input!
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Postby Rehlachs- » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:59 am

Ulushnar wrote:Intellect never helped our longevity as much as some people thought it did.

Blessing of Salv and Divine Plea help my longevity in overgearing situations more than any amount of +Intellect would.


[starting giving-useless-information-mode]

true before 3.0, but at least BoSanc and Divine Plea will scale a little bit with Intellect (1 Int -> 0.3 Mana per BoSanc-Proc, 1 Int -> 3.75 Mana per Minute). Those numbers are still way too small to make Intellect 'good', since avoidance stats will have BoSanc returning more Mana than Intellect does in total.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:10 am

I am slightly concerned about mana input when building secondary agro.

I suppose, unlike TBC, we have enough tanking options to work on TPM cycles (much like warriors use TPR in low rage enviroments) as opposed to using everything. Without HS the max tps cycle involves seal switching, which is expensive stuff.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:12 am

Assuming you do not use Consecration and Holy Shield, takes 2-3 minutes for us to run completely oom while not taking if we take exactly 0 damage
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:12 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:I am slightly concerned about mana input when building secondary agro.


You have Divine Plea. Also Judgement of Wisdom scales now and there's no reason not to use it since we no longer have to worry about Judgement of the Crusader.
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Postby Pizbit » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:14 am

Worldie wrote:Assuming you do not use Consecration and Holy Shield, takes 2-3 minutes for us to run completely oom while not taking if we take exactly 0 damage


Which mana returns does this include? Or does it not even include JoW mana returns or divine plea?
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Postby Rehlachs- » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:14 am

+ new Hand of Sacrifice
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:17 am

Ulushnar wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:I am slightly concerned about mana input when building secondary agro.


You have Divine Plea. Also Judgement of Wisdom scales now and there's no reason not to use it since we no longer have to worry about Judgement of the Crusader.

Also replenishment and at a pinch LoH, but I still don't see them carrying a full cycle.
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Postby majiben » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:24 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:I am slightly concerned about mana input when building secondary agro.


You have Divine Plea. Also Judgement of Wisdom scales now and there's no reason not to use it since we no longer have to worry about Judgement of the Crusader.

Also replenishment and at a pinch LoH, but I still don't see them carrying a full cycle.


Can a warrior/bear build secondary aggro better than us when left without a source of incoming damage? If yes then there might be a problem. DKs are odd since they are almost entirely self generating in their resources.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:26 am

Pizbit wrote:
Worldie wrote:Assuming you do not use Consecration and Holy Shield, takes 2-3 minutes for us to run completely oom while not taking if we take exactly 0 damage


Which mana returns does this include? Or does it not even include JoW mana returns or divine plea?

Includes JoW, Replenishment and Divine Plea, does not include a runic mana pot. (one single pot basically refills our mana pool completely)
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