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Threat problems? :/

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Threat problems? :/

Postby Zibey » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:22 am

Fiorina has stated in other topic that his tps and dps are lower than those of worse geared warrior. I dont really care if our tps is enough or not for the content - I care if warriors indeed have yet another advantage over us. Reading beta forums, and general opinions equally geared paladins were supposed to be favourised when we talk threat.
Now I see noumbers that prove otherwise. Hence I make this topic - so more ppl can check it out, and give their noumbers... hopefully proving Fiorina is doing something really wrong ;) (no offence mate :P).
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Postby gmf1 » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:31 am

I though we were ahead, but that was before pally nerfs (shield and coeficients) and warrios buffs (revenge all i can remeber) If they are indeed ahead of us then it could be a problem :) We haveto excel at something but this is beta so wouldn't worry too much, complain when wrath hits and warriors have more hp, avoidance, block, threat, dps and fear wards.
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Postby Ruex » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:35 am

Did you have Righteous Fury up. I tanked Heroic Ramps on the PTR and was sucking ass until I realised I was missing that. I missed having my Tankadin Mod.
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Postby Macha » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:58 am

Yes, we do less threat than druids and warriors.
No, it's not an issue atm - so far threat is no problem in any instance for any tank. A dev stated that they don't want to be threat as important(sadly), that might be why.
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Postby Zibey » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:11 am

Point is that i dont care if its enough. Even if its not enough but more than others do I'm happy ^^. Really - if smn asks you and warrior why should he take you not him warrior can say:
I have more avoidance, more mitigation, better oh-shit buttons, and more aggro, while aoe-tanking equally good.
What you can say is... I take more dmg, and do less threat, but... take my more dmg with less spikes?
So - I am not whining really - If I did that it would be on official forums, but please dont tell me that another field where we fall back is unimportant - even if it really is not so much, it could look good in CV ;).
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Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:26 am

Something people tend to forget is that our threat scales faster, however.

I'd not be surprised if we're behind on threat (not like it matters in T7) on start, just to ramp up later, something like what happens in RoS P3.
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Postby MomysLidlMonsta » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:37 am

While I'm not too sure about the scaling, I'm quite positive that no other class can rival our multi-target threat. Yes it is no longer required to bring a paladin for AoE-tanking, but we're still best for the job.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:40 am

Paladin's threat scales only with damage done, there's no innate threat in any of our ability. Warriors and druids still got innate threat on their skills.
I think Death Knight's threat also scales with just raw damage.

100% damage scaling will always be > x% damage scaling
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:05 am

Well, I think its an issue.

To be viable in raids, we have to be viable as tanks.

Tanking viability is expressed in the following methods:

The ability to mitigate damage - we are not the best here.

Large EH for the oh shit - we are not the best here

Maximal threat, so as not to threat cap dps - apparently not the best here now

DPS - all dps in a raid matters - not the best here...

Hmm do I detect a pattern?

Paladins are shaping up to be a middle of the road tank, excelling at nothing, except maybe taking smoother melee damage.

Personally, I still think druids take smoother damage.

I am not saying that we are not viable. But if this trend continues, and we excel at nothing, while the other tanks do, we will be a poor choice in a tanking rotation.
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Postby Zibey » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:08 am

Worldie wrote:Paladin's threat scales only with damage done, there's no innate threat in any of our ability. Warriors and druids still got innate threat on their skills.
I think Death Knight's threat also scales with just raw damage.

100% damage scaling will always be > x% damage scaling


Tho are you sure we will catch up after all? You can say the same about TBC, and yet warriors seem to have more threat after all.

I would really like to see that there're benefits alond with all those disadvantages we have.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:13 am

Even if warriors have "more threat" at the end, as long as our is enough to not threat cap, it's fine.

If their maximum TPS is 2k, our maximum is 1800, but the maximum tps for a dps is 1500, doesn't change anything, you will agree with me.
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Postby Zibey » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:19 am

Unless encounter gets ugly - there's lot of moving, maybe even some periods when you cant tank, and you fx lose 1/4 of your tps in the end - warrior is still at 1500, and dps might get sweaty with him, tho nobody should die, while you just killed some melee ;). Purely hypotetical, but I think point was made ;).
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:43 am

Zibey wrote:Point is that i dont care if its enough. Even if its not enough but more than others do I'm happy ^^.


This is exactly the wrong attitude.
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Postby Macawber » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:51 am

Worldie wrote:100% damage scaling will always be > x% damage scaling

That's true, but only if you can actually reach the gear level where the extra scaling makes up for the lower base threat. For example, if paladins only overtake warriors when decked out in Arthas gear, I would argue that your statement isn't true.

Blizzard seems to like this idea of starting out at a disadvantage, but making up for it with better scaling down the road. It's the same thing they're doing with paladin vs warrior health. Personally I think it's a terrible design. No matter what content you're on, one class or the other will always be overpowered. Do they do it to keep classes distinct? Homogenization isn't a concern for me, but even for people that are bothered by it, threat and health are so fundamental to tanking that they should just make everyone equal and be done with it.
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Postby Equitas » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:56 am

Doesnt Curse of elements/ Plague of the ebon bla bla give us 13% more holy dmg i.e Way more tps?
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