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AD worth it?

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Postby Galannor » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:39 am

Snake-Aes wrote:The proportion of %hp lost per swing does look like it'll be smaller, but that doesn't have to be the case of more hp. It might as well be part of block value, or even just an increase of attack speed with static dps.


True, but that would still make AD better, a scaling of sorts.
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Postby Equitas » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:52 am

AD Rarely every saved me from anything. In TBC with out healthpools and bosshits of 8-10K dmg it was always leapfrogged, and if you ever got that low your healers were probably slacking or you were slacking and ate a crushing.

The issue is:

If you have it, it will never noticeably save you.

If you dont have it, it could have saved you.


Id really love to see blizzard change the mechanic so that its not being leapfrogged all the time. Maybe even turn it into a passive last standish thingy? Or maybe increase dodge rating by 30% like the commendation of kael thas trinket.

I dont know, but right now as i see it anything is better than AD.


I would love to put my points somewhere else, frankly i dont know where to invest 5 points.

I have seals of the Pure in my build, i Have 1 in imp judgement and 5 in deflection.

So i could take out 1 point from AD and spec it into reckoning so that its 5/5 instead of 4/5 .....

I could take it and get kings.. only problem is i want sanctuary and kings, so kings is the ret pallys job not mine.


So why the hell not... i dont think the issue here is whether or not you should be taking it because the cookie cutter build will probably look something like this http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... 1533312321

and as we can see theres no other place :P or useful place atleast.

So the problem is that it needs to be changed to stop being so god damn situational.
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Postby steadypal » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:53 am

Sabindeus wrote:
bubblehaxx wrote:
Songblade wrote:But here is my problem, there is no way that I see that I can pick up AD at 70 without sacrificing at least 1 point of AD.

Here is my build at the moment.

With 4 points intentionally left open for changes.


just take your points out of Shield of the Templar till you are level 75 and can make use of all the spells listed. Bam you have room for AD well most of it.


Don't do that, SotT is getting 3% DR tacked onto it.



supposedly it will, patch coming out next week, i wouldnt be suprised to see us go out as is, if its inc might be waiting a few months after the xpac is released
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Postby Eanin » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:23 am

Out of curiosity, what mod are people using to tell when AD saves them?

AD is great. There's a huge mistake in thinking somehow AD is "chancy", but extra hps is "certain". Extra hitpoints get leapfrogged all the time, too. If you were at 1500 when you took a killing blow, you may as well have had 1 hitpoint. Chance is chance. It's just that the chance that AD will save you is harder to calculate.
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Postby steadypal » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:26 am

Eanin wrote:Out of curiosity, what mod are people using to tell when AD saves them?

AD is great. There's a huge mistake in thinking somehow AD is "chancy", but extra hp is "certain". Extra hitpoints get leapfrogged all the time, too. If you were at 1500 when you took a killing blow, you may as well have had 1 hitpoint. Chance is chance. It's just that the chance that AD will save you is harder to calculate.


tankadin is the mod


i wish they put some sort of graphic on when AD was active, i never realized how often it was active until i got the trinket from heroic magisters, cause they both proc at the same HP, so seeing that mgt trinket up quite a bit it got me thinkin HEY my healers suck i cant spec sanc aura QQ pillow time LOL



pally changes in 09, patch 3.3
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Postby Embher » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:29 am

Ok, I get ppl are saying that AD hardly makes an otherwise killing hit a hit that puts you at 50 hp instead but what about all the mitigation it offers so that you can get healed up to safe levels faster and prevent getting repeatedly low on hp?

Say you ahve 21k hp(7350 is the 35% mark), hits are 5k, and heals are lacking for a period of time:
hit 5k to 16
hit 5k to 11
hit 5k to 6k
hit 5k to 2500 (mitigated by 30% from AD)
5k heal to 7500
hit 5k to 2500
5k heal to 7500
5k heal to 12500
hit 5k to 7500


VS

hit 5k to 16
hit 5k to 11
hit 5k to 6k
hit 5k to 1k (no AD talent)
5k heal to 6k
hit 5k to 1k
5k heal to 6k
5k heal to 11k
hit 5k to 6k
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Postby Dianora » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:29 am

Rena wrote:so basically the survivability of AD is much more worth it than 3/3 Crusade...i was just tryin to maximize tps. if possible


It's cheaper to spend 5 points in Seal of the Pure in Holy for that extra TPS than the extra points to get to Crusade. I don't intend to spend more than 11 point in Retribution.
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Postby Equitas » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:26 am

Embher wrote:Ok, I get ppl are saying that AD hardly makes an otherwise killing hit a hit that puts you at 50 hp instead but what about all the mitigation it offers so that you can get healed up to safe levels faster and prevent getting repeatedly low on hp?

Say you ahve 21k hp(7350 is the 35% mark), hits are 5k, and heals are lacking for a period of time:
hit 5k to 16
hit 5k to 11
hit 5k to 6k
hit 5k to 2500 (mitigated by 30% from AD)
5k heal to 7500
hit 5k to 2500
5k heal to 7500
5k heal to 12500
hit 5k to 7500



VS

hit 5k to 16
hit 5k to 11
hit 5k to 6k
hit 5k to 1k (no AD talent)
5k heal to 6k
hit 5k to 1k
5k heal to 6k
5k heal to 11k
hit 5k to 6k


Thats a ridiculous assumption, Because when youre at 21K HP Bossess will be hitting you for 8K-9K

so lets do that Again

21 000 | - 8000
13 000 | -8000
5000 | (- 8000) -30% from AD = 5600
-600 AKA Dead

There you go. This is the no heal scenario, if you want to i can also state some preposterous healing in between where you will see its still getting leapfrogged.

Can i write QED now? No because the point is, its impossible to predict when and how much healing you will be getting in at the "critical points" AD will get leapfrogged 95% of the time. those 5% may prevent you from dying, but i hardly ever see them when its important.

AD is great when i tank trash and have 8 mobs hitting on me for 2K.

Other than that...




P.S:

Dianora im not planning on spending more than 8 points in retri *fg* 5/5 deflection 1/2 judgement and 2/2 Imp BoM so that the retri can go Kings.
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Postby earanduin » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:34 pm

In TBC, AD accounted for between 0.5-1.0% damage reduction on boss encounters. I see AD in LK being better than it was in TBC for a few reasons:
1) Bosses hitting you more often but for less damage relative to your total hp (as noted earlier going from 70% avoidance to 50% avoidance leaves you getting hit 67% more often)
2) Your BV is no longer an inconsequential amount. Being applied AFTER the damage reduction of AD scales the effective value of BV, and hence widens ADs effective active range).

AD is also weakened to some extent by not having the ability to chain pot (but this should be greatly outweighed by the points listed above). Also, I'm not sure whether Priest and Shaman armor buffs to the tank stack at this stage; if they don't then this too will lead to a diminuation of the relative value of AD.

Below is a repost of the math of the AD active range that I had posted on the beta forums. I added in BV into the equations to be more complete.


The following should allow you to calculate the effective range for mitigating an average hit.

High end of range = (hp*0.35)

Low end of range = [(inc dmg) *0.70) - BV] + 1

Range = High - Low


If you were to take an example where you had 21k hp and you were getting hit for 7k, and where your BV was 700, you would then have:

High end: 21k*0.35 = 7350 hp

Low end: 4900 - 700 + 1 = 4201 hp

Range: 7350 - 4201 = 3149 hp

So, you have a 3149 hp health range whereby AD would actually proc. Below the low end of the range (< 4201) and your dead, above the upper end of the range and in this case you wouldn't die.

Now, if trash hits for 2k then the effective AD proc range would be a total of in the above example would be

7350 - (2000*0.7)-700+1) = 6649

Or, said another way your effective hp prior to other effective health modifiers is increased by 6649*0.3 = 1995 hp. This why it is ok for us to be in the position we are in for stamina currently.

I cannot imagine a tankadin build without AD. It was very situational before, but we will likely see a greater benefit as we march through LK given the changes to game/class mechanics.



Also note that I had stopped using the mod 'tankadin' for announcing that AD saved my life some time ago as I found it to over represent the frequency of such an occurrence. For example, I normally heal on Naj'entus and the mod reports AD saving my life every single time I take damage from Naj's bubble bursting. I also had to stop using it 'cause it scared the shit out of my healers ;P

(Chloe, I don't know if Tankadin's reporting has been fixed yet)
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Postby Vengeful » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:29 pm

AD should be changed to give you a 5 second buff that reduces damage by 30% or some sort of equivalent change.

The majority of them time, when you drop into AD range on a boss fight you're healed out of it before the next hit lands and thus has no effect on our EH.


Or perhaps a charge based buff so that the next two hits in 5 seconds are reduced.
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:44 pm

Every time there's a thread that asks this, I always expect an image macro from Lore or Invis saying something like "AD IS ALWAYS WORTH IT". ;)

That semi-joking aside, I recall Dianora and others saying that damage in Wrath seems to be much less bursty, from a healing perspective. I expect this means that we are more likely to actually see hits that don't leapfrog the Ardent Defender threshold. I could be wrong, of course, and there WILL certainly be hard-hitting bosses. I just have a hard time finding anything more valuable to put points into in its place.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:45 pm

Equitas wrote:
Thats a ridiculous assumption, Because when youre at 21K HP Bossess will be hitting you for 8K-9K

so lets do that Again

21 000 | - 8000
13 000 | -8000
5000 | (- 8000) -30% from AD = 5600
-600 AKA Dead

There you go. This is the no heal scenario, if you want to i can also state some preposterous healing in between where you will see its still getting leapfrogged.



Now that is really ridicules. There is NO no healing thing if a boss hits for 8k.

On a fight like archimonde, there is 8-9 healers. At least 2-3 are healing you depending on where they are. But you will have a lot of hots.

Now Attack Speed should be 2 sec or longer.. So just to think of a no heal situation in a raid is ridicules.

Yes, it WILL be leapfrogged. It did happen to me some times. But, it did save me about ten times as much as doing nothing for me.

And with the fewer avoidance -> more hits it will be even stronger.

Now if you are not the maintankadin going against the progression bosses, don't skill it. It is really only noticeable if you go to the edge. On a farm run I do have whole nights when it is not even migrating damage..
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:47 pm

Vengeful wrote:AD should be changed to give you a 5 second buff that reduces damage by 30% or some sort of equivalent change.

The majority of them time, when you drop into AD range on a boss fight you're healed out of it before the next hit lands and thus has no effect on our EH.


Or perhaps a charge based buff so that the next two hits in 5 seconds are reduced.


That would be nice as hell. Especially because it is still a five point talent..
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Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:53 pm

My personal experience says: Not having AD in heroics and Naxx is suicidal.

Exactly like on the earlier stages of TBC, things hurt a LOT for your gear level. Since the HP pool is massive and damage can be mitigated to be less than 30% of your HP per hit, you'll find AD working a lot in any fight with party damage or movement.
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Postby steadypal » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:38 pm

they should just turn AD into a cheat death type ability
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