AD worth it?

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Postby agnara » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:46 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Galannor wrote:Not to mention the huge health pools we'll have will male it even better.


I'm not exactly sure what the thought process is that comes to this conclusion. This is only true if bosses don't hit any harder.


I think he was saying the exact same thing as Snake-Aes, just that he worded it differently. That the bosses would be likely to hit for a smaller % of your total health pool.
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Postby Conaan! » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:48 am

bubblehaxx wrote:
Songblade wrote:But here is my problem, there is no way that I see that I can pick up AD at 70 without sacrificing at least 1 point of AD.

Here is my build at the moment.

With 4 points intentionally left open for changes.


just take your points out of Shield of the Templar till you are level 75 and can make use of all the spells listed. Bam you have room for AD well most of it.



shield of the templar is getting 3% mitigation talent added to it, dont take it out
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:53 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Galannor wrote:Not to mention the huge health pools we'll have will male it even better.


I'm not exactly sure what the thought process is that comes to this conclusion. This is only true if bosses don't hit any harder.


That is the general assumption.

If avoidance goes from 70% to 50% meaning we will get 40% more hits, right?

So the thought is, that each of those hits will be lower so overall damage (compared to effective health) will be lower. That would mean the 35% HP are worth more due to less leapfrogging.

It is just a theory :)
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:55 am

The proportion of %hp lost per swing does look like it'll be smaller, but that doesn't have to be the case of more hp. It might as well be part of block value, or even just an increase of attack speed with static dps.
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Postby Rehlachs- » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:59 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:If avoidance goes from 70% to 50% meaning we will get 40% more hits, right?


30% hits -> 50% hits, increase to 166,67%
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:01 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Galannor wrote:Not to mention the huge health pools we'll have will male it even better.


I'm not exactly sure what the thought process is that comes to this conclusion. This is only true if bosses don't hit any harder.


That is the general assumption.

If avoidance goes from 70% to 50% meaning we will get 40% more hits, right?

So the thought is, that each of those hits will be lower so overall damage (compared to effective health) will be lower. That would mean the 35% HP are worth more due to less leapfrogging.

It is just a theory :)


Sure, and it's a valid theory. It's the "bigger health pool == better AD" theory I didn't subscribe to.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:05 am

Of course, that would only make sense if damage is static. And everybody knows that the damage per hit goes really up from ssc/tk to bt/hyjal. So it will go up with HP.

Just maybe a little less because of less avoidance.

Which is great. Less Leapfrogging AND those times when a tank gets like 100% of his HP as Damage in 3 sec are gone for good. Less burst is welcome.
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Postby daemonym » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:16 am

same principle as a condom, rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. saves ya from many an uncomfortable situation. :lol:
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Postby Galannor » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:22 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Galannor wrote:Not to mention the huge health pools we'll have will male it even better.


I'm not exactly sure what the thought process is that comes to this conclusion. This is only true if bosses don't hit any harder.


That is the general assumption.

If avoidance goes from 70% to 50% meaning we will get 40% more hits, right?

So the thought is, that each of those hits will be lower so overall damage (compared to effective health) will be lower. That would mean the 35% HP are worth more due to less leapfrogging.

It is just a theory :)


Sure, and it's a valid theory. It's the "bigger health pool == better AD" theory I didn't subscribe to.


It's what I meant, less leapfroging, at least on trash and presumably on bosses too.
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Postby Azulito » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:38 am

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Postby solina » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:39 am

Songblade wrote:But here is my problem, there is no way that I see that I can pick up AD at 70 without sacrificing at least 1 point of AD.

Here is my build at the moment.

With 4 points intentionally left open for changes.


My present line of thought is that I'll be sancing myself, and skipping kings @ 70. I can only think of a small handful of situations where a non-tank asked for Kings over Wis/Might.. and, well, they can deal.

(Generally I'm the only Pally around, of any spec. Go go cas-ish horde guild.)
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:45 am

bubblehaxx wrote:
Songblade wrote:But here is my problem, there is no way that I see that I can pick up AD at 70 without sacrificing at least 1 point of AD.

Here is my build at the moment.

With 4 points intentionally left open for changes.


just take your points out of Shield of the Templar till you are level 75 and can make use of all the spells listed. Bam you have room for AD well most of it.


Don't do that, SotT is getting 3% DR tacked onto it.
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Postby Belarkan » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:53 am

Galannor wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Galannor wrote:Not to mention the huge health pools we'll have will male it even better.


I'm not exactly sure what the thought process is that comes to this conclusion. This is only true if bosses don't hit any harder.


That is the general assumption.

If avoidance goes from 70% to 50% meaning we will get 40% more hits, right?

So the thought is, that each of those hits will be lower so overall damage (compared to effective health) will be lower. That would mean the 35% HP are worth more due to less leapfrogging.

It is just a theory :)


Sure, and it's a valid theory. It's the "bigger health pool == better AD" theory I didn't subscribe to.


It's what I meant, less leapfroging, at least on trash and presumably on bosses too.


You meant nothing at all.
If you double your health pool and face bosses that hit twice as hard, how could AD be any better ?
Unless you overgear the encounter, AD won't be any better. Then once you overgear, you shouldn't need AD any longer.
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Postby 2ndNin » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:55 am

Except the leap-frogging wasn't really changed in T4-t6.

A T4 tank fully buffed sits around 16K, a T6.5 Tank around 23K, taking AD from:

5.6k to 8k (give or take).

At the same time the hardest hitting bosses in each tier move from 5k+ hits, to 8k+ hits, the hardest hitters scale almost directly with your HP (thinking Magtheridon and Teron here or Nightbane if you want numbers). The light hitting bosses are typically in the 3-4k / hit range at all armour levels, so do become slightly easier, however typically they are more likely to have a fun mechanic to make the hit the least of your worries (breath from NB, add shock from Curator, Flurry on Prince).

AD as such seems to retain a fairly static usefulness, its not a magically scaling buff, its the same as the tauren HP buff, 5% is 5%, the scaling matters if bosses hit you for a static amount not scaled to your level (so going back to Scarlet Monastry and finding that block gear = no damage), however in appropriate level content the hits approximate a scaling, and there are always bosses basically designed to leap frog it.

Trash will likely not scale to the same extent, Kara -> BT the mobs still hit for 1-3k/hit give or take, but they again tend to gain fun abilities to mess with you (fear/stun/knockdown on the way to attuman can kill a T6.5 paladin), especially if we AoE tank where we become more susceptible to these effects because there are more of them (not individually but as a whole we will see these effects, same reason 6 abom tanking is classed as fun while 2 is classed as meh).

I am with Modus on this one, AD is useful, but its not going to magically get better as our health scales unless you never go to Northrend.
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Postby Galannor » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:33 am

Belarkan wrote:
Galannor wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Galannor wrote:Not to mention the huge health pools we'll have will male it even better.


I'm not exactly sure what the thought process is that comes to this conclusion. This is only true if bosses don't hit any harder.


That is the general assumption.

If avoidance goes from 70% to 50% meaning we will get 40% more hits, right?

So the thought is, that each of those hits will be lower so overall damage (compared to effective health) will be lower. That would mean the 35% HP are worth more due to less leapfrogging.

It is just a theory :)


Sure, and it's a valid theory. It's the "bigger health pool == better AD" theory I didn't subscribe to.


It's what I meant, less leapfroging, at least on trash and presumably on bosses too.


You meant nothing at all.
If you double your health pool and face bosses that hit twice as hard, how could AD be any better ?
Unless you overgear the encounter, AD won't be any better. Then once you overgear, you shouldn't need AD any longer.


Mind reader eh? You don'know what I meant, and even if I would happen to be wrong, it's no reason to make this place feel like the official forums.

That said, and notwithstanding the general assumption that the damage curve should lessen due to the avoidance reduction, I still think that a larger window for AD to kick in would slightly benifit its "proc rate" no matter what the damage input.

If I use the 5.6 to 8 example for above:

at 23k, your being hit for 8k by the hard hitters. Now you probably wont go 8k 8k 8k dead. if everything was regulary inc ie heals, pots, etc It would always proc at the same time. The bigger your health pool goes the more variance would logically incur, hence an admittingly slight improvent in the chance for AD to kick in. However it's all theorycrafting and im no expert neither a math wiz.

One thing for sure, with armor and now avoidance DR, it is a fair assumption that damage curve will lessen and then make AD scale better as the hp curve will remain stable. Hence me precising it what I meant.

Feel free to disagree, but theres no reason we can't be civil.
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