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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:03 am

Tooltips and spells/talents are updated totally independantly. Just as an example, here's Tundra Stalker, the 46-50 DK frost talent:

8xxx: Tooltip: "Increases the damage dealt to targets with Frost Fever by 10%, also increasees your expertise by 5." Actual: +10% damage to targets with frost fever, +5 expertise.
9014: Tooltip: "Increases the damage dealt to targets with Frost Fever by 10%, damage by icy touch by 100%, and also increasees your expertise by 10." Actual: +10% damage to targets with frost fever, +100% icy touch damage, +5 expertise.
903x: Tooltip: "Increases the damage dealt to targets with Frost Fever by 10%, damage by icy touch by 100%, and also increasees your expertise by 10." Actual: +10% damage to targets with frost fever, +25% icy touch damage, +5 expertise.
9061: Tooltip: "Increases the damage dealt to targets with Frost Fever by 10%, damage by icy touch by 25%, and also increasees your expertise by 10." Actual: +10% damage to targets with frost fever, +25% icy touch, howling blast, and obliterate damage, +10 expertise.

EDIT: It's worth noting that Ghostcrawler made a post somewhere before 903x that tundra stalker would buff obliterate and acclimation would buff rune strike. That's all the info we were given; with the tooltips not updated, I've been trying to guess how the Rune Strike change was pushed, but recount seems to be pointing at it being still untouched; I get the same damage with or without the talent, even if the actual proc is up.

Frost Presence is the same way; last patch said it went up to 60% armor, but in testing it was still 45%. Today, it's 60%.

Find something that deals a fixed amount, such as a warlock DoT, and drop your talent points. Then have the lock dot you. Check the damage. Let everything reset, put points into the talent, and repeat. If you took 3% less damage, the change was implemented and the tooltip wasn't updated.

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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:15 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Aldonza wrote:Even if they are finalizing the 3.0.2 content patch, they could still decide to make some major changes between 3.0.2 and WotLK release. IIRC, they made some major talent changes between 2.0 and TBC for Rogues. 2.0 content patch pushed Cloak of Shadows as the end talent of Subtlety, which come TBC was made baselne and replaced with Shadowstep in the same tree.

So, even if they have finalized the major changes that they want to go live come the next content patch, they could still make some changes (even significant ones) between 3.0.2 where they can get even more en masse data and WotLK.


Well 2.0 released a very old beta patch. For instance, 2.0 got released in December and still had the 6 second crusader strike. In beta, Crusader Strike had been nerfed to 10 seconds in October. The 2.0 patch was basically a 6 week old beta patch. They don't seem to be repeating that disaster at least.

The difference between the final beta when the blues took control of raid bosses and marched on Shattrah, and the release of the expansion wasn't all that big.


It makes sense. Whether or not it had the latest balance changes, it was deemed stable for release at the time. And that's what counts most when releasing software.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:19 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Aldonza wrote:Even if they are finalizing the 3.0.2 content patch, they could still decide to make some major changes between 3.0.2 and WotLK release. IIRC, they made some major talent changes between 2.0 and TBC for Rogues. 2.0 content patch pushed Cloak of Shadows as the end talent of Subtlety, which come TBC was made baselne and replaced with Shadowstep in the same tree.

So, even if they have finalized the major changes that they want to go live come the next content patch, they could still make some changes (even significant ones) between 3.0.2 where they can get even more en masse data and WotLK.


Well 2.0 released a very old beta patch. For instance, 2.0 got released in December and still had the 6 second crusader strike. In beta, Crusader Strike had been nerfed to 10 seconds in October. The 2.0 patch was basically a 6 week old beta patch. They don't seem to be repeating that disaster at least.

The difference between the final beta when the blues took control of raid bosses and marched on Shattrah, and the release of the expansion wasn't all that big.


It makes sense. Whether or not it had the latest balance changes, it was deemed stable for release at the time. And that's what counts most when releasing software.


Well you are making an assumption that a future version wouldn't be stable, but I'd also argue that features are extremely important as well, otherwise what's the point in the release at all? I don't think there's much doubt they really screwed the pooch with that release. It didn't help that they were saying they'd release X and released Y instead.
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Postby Obrimos » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:28 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Aldonza wrote:Even if they are finalizing the 3.0.2 content patch, they could still decide to make some major changes between 3.0.2 and WotLK release. IIRC, they made some major talent changes between 2.0 and TBC for Rogues. 2.0 content patch pushed Cloak of Shadows as the end talent of Subtlety, which come TBC was made baselne and replaced with Shadowstep in the same tree.

So, even if they have finalized the major changes that they want to go live come the next content patch, they could still make some changes (even significant ones) between 3.0.2 where they can get even more en masse data and WotLK.


Well 2.0 released a very old beta patch. For instance, 2.0 got released in December and still had the 6 second crusader strike. In beta, Crusader Strike had been nerfed to 10 seconds in October. The 2.0 patch was basically a 6 week old beta patch. They don't seem to be repeating that disaster at least.

The difference between the final beta when the blues took control of raid bosses and marched on Shattrah, and the release of the expansion wasn't all that big.


It makes sense. Whether or not it had the latest balance changes, it was deemed stable for release at the time. And that's what counts most when releasing software.


Well you are making an assumption that a future version wouldn't be stable, but I'd also argue that features are extremely important as well, otherwise what's the point in the release at all? I don't think there's much doubt they really screwed the pooch with that release. It didn't help that they were saying they'd release X and released Y instead.


Maybe they were afraid of something like that recent Beta build where DKs were bringing down servers.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:45 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well you are making an assumption that a future version wouldn't be stable, but I'd also argue that features are extremely important as well, otherwise what's the point in the release at all? I don't think there's much doubt they really screwed the pooch with that release. It didn't help that they were saying they'd release X and released Y instead.


It's a correct assumption. You don't KNOW if a particular build is stable until you've given it thorough testing. What I am saying is that the testing on the build they put out live for the 2.0 patch had received enough testing that they could in fact certify it for release. Whether or not the later builds were actually stable or not is irrelevant. What matters is whether they had sufficient time to PROVE them stable.
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Postby Sonic » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:04 pm

Yeesh, I hate to be the dev's at Blizzcon this week. They are gonna get torn up during the questioning.

Wonder how they are going to handle the patch next week. Just flush the new build in with 3.0 or patch it in the following? Be nice if we actually get some more live updates before LK.
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:08 pm

While it seems very likely that 3.0 will hit on Tuesday (due to the arena season ending), I don't believe that's been stated as a hard deadline. By that I mean, it looks like their intent is to release the patch then, but if the shit hits the fan and they're not ready, they haven't locked themselves into a timeframe where they have to release old content.

3.0 could be another week away for all we know.

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Postby Bobness » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:17 pm

Lol...

R we all 100% sure that SotT Had a 3% DR even on Blizz's internal version.....
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:28 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well you are making an assumption that a future version wouldn't be stable, but I'd also argue that features are extremely important as well, otherwise what's the point in the release at all? I don't think there's much doubt they really screwed the pooch with that release. It didn't help that they were saying they'd release X and released Y instead.


It's a correct assumption. You don't KNOW if a particular build is stable until you've given it thorough testing. What I am saying is that the testing on the build they put out live for the 2.0 patch had received enough testing that they could in fact certify it for release. Whether or not the later builds were actually stable or not is irrelevant. What matters is whether they had sufficient time to PROVE them stable.


Eh, the point is they mismanaged it obviously. They did have a PTR, you find out if a new build is stable by putting it there, exactly the way they are doing it now. I KNOW they had plenty of time to PROVE them stable in the exact way they are doing it now. It's not like the build they put on the PTR was even current at the time the PTR opened.
Last edited by Fridmarr on Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:29 pm

Bobness wrote:Lol...

R we all 100% sure that SotT Had a 3% DR even on Blizz's internal version.....


Well, no we can't really be sure. I'll be pretty bummed if it doesn't make the 3.0 release.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:32 pm

Sonic wrote:Yeesh, I hate to be the dev's at Blizzcon this week. They are gonna get torn up during the questioning.

Wonder how they are going to handle the patch next week. Just flush the new build in with 3.0 or patch it in the following? Be nice if we actually get some more live updates before LK.


Yeah, probably not the best time to schedule an event like blizzcon.
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Postby steadypal » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:36 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Bobness wrote:Lol...

R we all 100% sure that SotT Had a 3% DR even on Blizz's internal version.....


Well, no we can't really be sure. I'll be pretty bummed if it doesn't make the 3.0 release.


or if we even get it before next year... who knows,,, maybe we'll have an 11 pt talent by 2009?
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:39 pm

steadypal wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Bobness wrote:Lol...

R we all 100% sure that SotT Had a 3% DR even on Blizz's internal version.....


Well, no we can't really be sure. I'll be pretty bummed if it doesn't make the 3.0 release.


or if we even get it before next year... who knows,,, maybe we'll have an 11 pt talent by 2009?


I'd full expect it to be included in the release of the expansion, if it is not, then I'll probably assume it was removed on purpose.

Also, I don't think we are getting an 11 point talent, and I don't think we are going to be getting those "cool talents" deep in the protection tree either. The deadline is looming.
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