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Pally Buffs (minor RD buff) + more Bacon of Light

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:08 am

Buffing outside istance takes time, is subject to world PvP, requires also the additional time of logging the alts, unless it's some boss like Brutallus which takes less than 1 minute to get to, noone is ever going to get a "level 30 prot paladin outside just for Sanctuary".
It's not that impressive buffs, tanks and healers hardly notice that low mitigation, like 3/4 of the class specific buffs.

You level the alt to max level. You then log your main, get a lock to summon your alt, buff, get back on your main. Takes 1-2 minutes per attempt and can be done by a class without raid buffs (ie, rogues and warlocks). This is negligable time spent since most of it will be incurred during raid buffing/afk/etc anyway. Then you only have one class/group to finish.

If you follow this logic, then you can bring no paladins, no priests, no mages, no druids to a raid, just bring 3 warriors, 10 shamans 1 hunter and 11 warlocks.

1. Paladins still have the highest single target HPS. You still need one to rebuff salv (or kings) if someone dies.
2. There really is no reason at the moment to bring disc priests
-Shadow priests, currently, are unreplacable. They also have Mass Dispel.
-SP has unique buffs that keep it safe.
-Holy Priests have Circle of Healing/renew/shield, which is unique and cannot be compensated for by More Chain Heal usually.
3. Mages currently are inferior for DPS in sunwell. They survive based on (1) better than moonkin dps with decurse (2) scorch bot for lock tank (3) If you use warriors to side-tank m'uru.
4. Druids have battle res and have certain healing/mitigation advantages.

Summary of what we learned in TBC:
Classes need either (1) Unique buffs in combat or (2) equivalent DPS and Abilities. Otherwise they can be buff botted or sidelined.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:25 am

You are talking about TBC, while i was referring to WotLK.
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Postby Mneme » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:54 am

Worldie wrote:Actually RD has been behaving strangely, it didn't trigger the GCD in beta, but still cannot be cast during a GCD.

Noone knows if it's intended or not.


It seems to invoke a 1s (definitely less than 1.5s) GCD when cast, and cannot be cast during any GCD. I hope this is either an oversight, or a hint towards getting a single-target taunt.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:56 am

Mneme wrote:
Worldie wrote:Actually RD has been behaving strangely, it didn't trigger the GCD in beta, but still cannot be cast during a GCD.

Noone knows if it's intended or not.


It seems to invoke a 1s (definitely less than 1.5s) GCD when cast, and cannot be cast during any GCD. I hope this is either an oversight, or a hint towards getting a single-target taunt.


It has varied from patch to patch, but right now it is definitely affected by and causing a GCD.
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Postby Splug » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:01 pm

There have been a lot of odd flukes with abilities being on/off GCD right after they tweak something else with them. The patch where Concussion Blow went from 50% ap -> 75% ap, it also stopped causing a GCD (but could not be used if you were already on GCD). That was later resolved, and it now causes a GCD correctly.

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Postby Niemen » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:35 pm

Am i the only one who thinks that the change to infusion of light is indeed more of a nerf than a buff.
I imagined that it would be useful to spam flash of light while your infusion is not consumed so you are able to cast a very quick holy light if the need arises. In the current situation, we will not be able to safe the infusion for such occasions, it will consumed immediately
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Postby majiben » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:41 pm

Niemen wrote:Am i the only one who thinks that the change to infusion of light is indeed more of a nerf than a buff.
I imagined that it would be useful to spam flash of light while your infusion is not consumed so you are able to cast a very quick holy light if the need arises. In the current situation, we will not be able to safe the infusion for such occasions, it will consumed immediately

It's only lose of Instant FoL or fast HL if you plan on using holyshock every cooldown. If you know there will be a mobile portion to a fight or aoe damage you save you divine favor+holyshock for that time.
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Postby Lexica » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:50 pm

Another patch and my Boots of the Protector are still a bag of crap. :?
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Postby Flex » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:58 pm

Niemen wrote:Am i the only one who thinks that the change to infusion of light is indeed more of a nerf than a buff.
I imagined that it would be useful to spam flash of light while your infusion is not consumed so you are able to cast a very quick holy light if the need arises. In the current situation, we will not be able to safe the infusion for such occasions, it will consumed immediately


The old change eliminated the issue the foresaw, huge burst healing on one GCD, and buffed it to include Flash of Light to get mobile healing back to Holy.

It's a buff and a nerf.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:00 pm

Flex wrote:
Niemen wrote:Am i the only one who thinks that the change to infusion of light is indeed more of a nerf than a buff.
I imagined that it would be useful to spam flash of light while your infusion is not consumed so you are able to cast a very quick holy light if the need arises. In the current situation, we will not be able to safe the infusion for such occasions, it will consumed immediately


The old change eliminated the issue the foresaw, huge burst healing on one GCD, and buffed it to include Flash of Light to get mobile healing back to Holy.

It's a buff and a nerf.


Is holy shock not on the GCD anymore?
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:05 pm

Worldie wrote:You are talking about TBC, while i was referring to WotLK.

Actually I'm talking about things learned in TBC that are true extended into WOTLK. Your statement wasn't backed by fact - particularly the second quote.

In WOTLK it will still only take 1-2 minutes to alt buff a raid. Healers are still significants diverse. Sanctuary still is not a reason to bring a paladin since it can be provided by an alt. DPS that do not have a niche benefit or superior numbers will still be sideline material.
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Postby Faeth » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:11 pm

Elsie wrote:In WOTLK it will still only take 1-2 minutes to alt buff a raid. Healers are still significants diverse. Sanctuary still is not a reason to bring a paladin since it can be provided by an alt. DPS that do not have a niche benefit or superior numbers will still be sideline material.

Why are you ignoring the fact that all buffs have some form of equivalent and that no class brings some unique niche that some other can't proved?

You'll have:
- Tank spots
- melee dps spots
- ranged dps spots
- mana battery / raid support spots
- healer spots

People will be selected for raids based on the slots available within these roles. None will get a specific advantage due to a niche that another class/spec can provide as well.

With your logic, anyone providing the raid with a buff could be put outside as a buff bot.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:37 pm

Why are you ignoring the fact that all buffs have some form of equivalent and that no class brings some unique niche that some other can't proved?

Why are you ignoring that unique buffs still exist?
-Bloodlust, blessing of wisdom, certain totems, sanctuary, battle res, soulstone, misdirect, improved divine spirit, etc.

It's folly to assume all buffs have an equivalent. It's blatantly false.
People will be selected for raids based on the slots available within these roles. None will get a specific advantage due to a niche that another class/spec can provide as well.

People will usually be selected on their performance and the preference of the raid/guild leaders. This means absolutely nothing to the subject since we're talking about balance - which preference can be later based on.

With my logic, yes anyone with a suitably long buff could be. That's the jist of it - thanks. You're also completely ignoring my point just to restate supporting evidence. Glad we agree on the facts, though I'd prefer comments on the conclusions.

Alternatively, you may also give inferences of your own from these conclusions, preferably with more supporting evidence. For instance, one could make the claim:
    Warriors are more efficient than paladins. This is true because they offer more in combat than a paladin does. While a paladin will give blessing of salvation, blessing of protection, and a second judgment. A warrior offers intercept equivalency to salvation, Last Stand superiority to LoH, and Sunder Armor superiority over JoL. This assumes there is a holy or ret paladin in the raid to do judgment of wisdom, else JoW might be sufficiently stronger or equivalent to a warrior's benefits. Furthermore, a warrior has shield block on demand to mitigate periodic boss abilities where a tank is actually in danger of death.
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Postby Joanadark » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Flex wrote:
Niemen wrote:Am i the only one who thinks that the change to infusion of light is indeed more of a nerf than a buff.
I imagined that it would be useful to spam flash of light while your infusion is not consumed so you are able to cast a very quick holy light if the need arises. In the current situation, we will not be able to safe the infusion for such occasions, it will consumed immediately


The old change eliminated the issue the foresaw, huge burst healing on one GCD, and buffed it to include Flash of Light to get mobile healing back to Holy.

It's a buff and a nerf.


Is holy shock not on the GCD anymore?


It most certainly is.
I have no idea why anyone would claim that we would have OMG burst healing in one GCD because you cant Holy Shock+instant anything in the same gcd. You could wait until Holy Shock's cooldown was up, and then burst it in immediately after a cast of holy light, but thats A)stupid, B)unaffected by the cast time of HL because you have to use HS after it in order for them to go off simultaneously anyway, and C)has no practical application because HL hits so hard.
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Postby Faeth » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:54 pm

Elsie wrote:Why are you ignoring that unique buffs still exist?
-Bloodlust, blessing of wisdom, certain totems, sanctuary, battle res, soulstone, misdirect, improved divine spirit, etc.

My point was that any of the other classes don't look at their buff and go "oh i will have to log on my alt and buff the raid with this, then log back to my main". It seems a twisted way to look at a buff.

Elsie wrote:People will usually be selected on their performance and the preference of the raid/guild leaders. This means absolutely nothing to the subject since we're talking about balance - which preference can be later based on.
You are talking about preference, nullifying the subject. I am not. Ofc preference plays a part. However with proper guild management you set up a rotation.

Elsie wrote:With my logic, yes anyone with a suitably long buff could be. That's the jist of it - thanks. You're also completely ignoring my point just to restate supporting evidence. Glad we agree on the facts, though I'd prefer comments on the conclusions.
The conclusion seems that it's folly to look at a buff and think "oh hey this is something my alt can provide". Apart from the fact that alt swapping is only done by a handful of guilds (the ones i have been in didn't do this), it's still an alt you talk about and no proper guild should NOT ignore the mains in it.

Elsie wrote:
    Warriors are more efficient than paladins. This is true because they offer more in combat than a paladin does. While a paladin will give blessing of salvation, blessing of protection, and a second judgment. A warrior offers intercept equivalency to salvation, Last Stand superiority to LoH, and Sunder Armor superiority over JoL. This assumes there is a holy or ret paladin in the raid to do judgment of wisdom, else JoW might be sufficiently stronger or equivalent to a warrior's benefits. Furthermore, a warrior has shield block on demand to mitigate periodic boss abilities where a tank is actually in danger of death.

We have a 40 yard 3 target taunt (very useful to pull back loose mobs).
Last stand is better yes (lower cd).
I don't see a comparison between Sunder Armor and JoL. Perhaps i'm missing something. Our judgements however are a great on-demand utility which benefits all dps. Our seals are great on-demand utility that benefits us. The ability to switch from mana regen to health regen to dps / tps shouldn't be underestimated.
We have hand of sacrifice, being able to reduce damage on any given target in raid for a period of time (think Bloodboil enrage scenarios)
We haven't got shieldblock, but we do have a permanent block upkeep, so all incoming damage is smoothed out more.

I'm still trying to see why we'd be considered inferior enough to be left out of any raid and be reduced to an out of raid buff-bot. I'm repeating things from the forum, because balance-wise you're considering us less than warriors while in fact we could ( / should?) be considered equal. I just don't see your point.
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