11 Point protection Talent

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Postby Songblade » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:16 pm

Tinalt wrote:we've agreed that the suggested 11 point talent isn't worth it, so let me suggest a new one.


Main Tank
Rank 0/1
Requires 10 points in Protection

Gives the paladin 1 HP, 1 Defense, 1 Dodge , 1 Parry, and 1 Block rating more then the highest warrior in the group.


this one talent point would stop all of the QQ in this thread in one fell swoop. it should be implemented for no other reason then that.


Then we could stack Strength, and nothing but that, and end up with higher defenses and higher threat than anyone else...

*Plots the implementation and overuse of this talent*
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Postby Caelia » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:17 pm

fold sanct into imp rf? makes imp RF descent.
In Progress: Fury Warrior: Tailwhip
All Retired: Holy Priest:Appletons | DK Blood Tank: Dreadborne | Prot Paladin: Welsh
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Postby Rupheo » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:42 pm

Caelia wrote:fold sanct into imp rf? makes imp RF descent.


While this would accomplish the same ends, and I would be for it if that was my choice, I feel my talent gives a little more choice to the other two talent trees.

Ret:
5/5 Divine Str
5/5 Kings
1/1 Divine Will

Now they can always have both Might and Kings, regardless of the circumstances

Holy
5/5 Kings
5/5 Anticipation (PVE offtank builds) 2/2 Guardian's Favor + 3/3 Stoicism (PVP builds)
1/1 Divine Will

Kings and Wisdom

This talent would give us the option of helping ourselves if we have to take kings anyway. The concept of "Selfish Buffers" has been thrown around alot on the blizzard forum, why not transfer it to Kings. I know there are plenty of builds that won't go anywhere near kings, and that's great. But there are also quite a few builds that will be taking at least 5/5 Kings, so why not get some benefit out of going just a bit deeper into Protection.
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Postby Lumenos » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:49 pm

The thing is, I can't see a single good holy pally putting points into the prot tree at all. Why would you ever give up 8% crit out of the ret tree.

At 80, I can see ret investing into the prot tree for kings, and maybe further, as there's not a whole lot to put points into once the ret tree is filled.

I'm speaking purely PVE also.
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Postby Mica » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:49 pm

Elsie wrote:Blinding Light 1/1
Infuses your weapon with holy light and discharges on impact. Deals twice weapon damage per second and renders target blind to all targets but you for 8 seconds.


Indirect taunting mechanic, neat idea. Sounds a bit more like a Fixate than a Taunt though, if it doesn't work like a taunt we'd need RD to work when the mobs targeting us... Something I've never understood why it doesn't work.

My idea was:

Improved Lay on Hands Rank 1
Gives the target of your Lay on Hands spell a 50% bonus to their armor value from items for 15 sec. In addition, the cooldown for your Lay on Hands spell is reduced by 10 min.

OR:

Righteous Fury Rank 1
You have a chance equal to your Block chance of blocking a direct damage spell by 50% of your block value.
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Postby Rupheo » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:07 pm

Lumenos wrote:The thing is, I can't see a single good holy pally putting points into the prot tree at all.


I have to agree with you, my argument for Holy is the weakest of the three without a doubt, but that's why it would be a choice talent, not a "must have."

That being said though, in situations where you are the only paladin and healing, 5man and 10 man most likely, being able to have both wisdom and kings may prove more viable than 8% more crit. Especially considering 10% int is going to refund some of that lost crit.

On the mana regeneration side of things, though 8% crit is a lot, with the prevalence of Mana regeneration classes + Divine Plea, this aspect of spell crit is lessened.

Again, it's about having a choice really. I, as a tank, want to be able to choose to take kings, and still get something out of it.
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Postby tinalt » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:30 am

Rupheo wrote:
Lumenos wrote:The thing is, I can't see a single good holy pally putting points into the prot tree at all.


I have to agree with you, my argument for Holy is the weakest of the three without a doubt, but that's why it would be a choice talent, not a "must have."

That being said though, in situations where you are the only paladin and healing, 5man and 10 man most likely, being able to have both wisdom and kings may prove more viable than 8% more crit. Especially considering 10% int is going to refund some of that lost crit.

On the mana regeneration side of things, though 8% crit is a lot, with the prevalence of Mana regeneration classes + Divine Plea, this aspect of spell crit is lessened.

Again, it's about having a choice really. I, as a tank, want to be able to choose to take kings, and still get something out of it.

Ok, in all seriousness, this idea of yours is broken. What you're basically asking for is for them to give all paladins a 10% buff all the time for one talent point. do you honestly expect bliz to let us give ourselves the best buff in the game, along with wisdom/might/sanc? the other classes would scream bloody murder.

Imagine the QQ in warrior forums that the paladin tank can get sanctuary and kings for 5 mans/heroics, while he gets neither. imagine the QQ in rogue forums when ret gets might and kings, and the rogue gets just might.

look at this from a bigger perspective and you can see how broken this would be.

we'd be better off making kings the "prot" blessing and make sanc a passive self buff.
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Postby steadypal » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:46 am

Tinalt wrote:
Rupheo wrote:
Lumenos wrote:The thing is, I can't see a single good holy pally putting points into the prot tree at all.


I have to agree with you, my argument for Holy is the weakest of the three without a doubt, but that's why it would be a choice talent, not a "must have."

That being said though, in situations where you are the only paladin and healing, 5man and 10 man most likely, being able to have both wisdom and kings may prove more viable than 8% more crit. Especially considering 10% int is going to refund some of that lost crit.

On the mana regeneration side of things, though 8% crit is a lot, with the prevalence of Mana regeneration classes + Divine Plea, this aspect of spell crit is lessened.

Again, it's about having a choice really. I, as a tank, want to be able to choose to take kings, and still get something out of it.

Ok, in all seriousness, this idea of yours is broken. What you're basically asking for is for them to give all paladins a 10% buff all the time for one talent point. do you honestly expect bliz to let us give ourselves the best buff in the game, along with wisdom/might/sanc? the other classes would scream bloody murder.

Imagine the QQ in warrior forums that the paladin tank can get sanctuary and kings for 5 mans/heroics, while he gets neither. imagine the QQ in rogue forums when ret gets might and kings, and the rogue gets just might.

look at this from a bigger perspective and you can see how broken this would be.

we'd be better off making kings the "prot" blessing and make sanc a passive self buff.



sanc getting baked in elsewhere would be the ideal thing, then prot can spec kings and there'd be 3 specs and 3 blessings total... but prot having 2 blessings and having to choose 1 vs other is terrible


dont worry though we wont be fixed until well into 2009
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Postby adacus79 » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:19 am

:shock:
I dont like it. i want the raid to want wis and might only. delete kings. I hate the entire raiding game being balanced around everyone having kings. as well as the stigma that comes with it. "pst dood" this guy dosn't have kings he is nub. scrap it ... im gonna put that in my sig lol . :wink:
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Postby Giacomo » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:26 am

what i'd like to see in an 11 pointer would be a mitigation-on-demand button with a cooldown of under 2 minutes. something very much unlike what warriors have. we got shield wall now, but i still want a bit more control on damage taken and all.

blessing system is kinda mixed up somewhat, but meh. my holy pala who i'm levelling with won't get kings, so i will have to.
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Postby sherck » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:39 am

Lumenos wrote:The thing is, I can't see a single good holy pally putting points into the prot tree at all. Why would you ever give up 8% crit out of the ret tree.


Well, first of all, you only lose out on 3% crit if you go 5/5 into Kings because you can still reach 5/5 Conviction with a 51/5/15 build.

However, the reason why many Holy Paladins will go 5/5 into Kings is because there is really not a better way to invest 5 points and improve your terrible leveling rate while getting to level 80.

Might is no good to a Holy for helping his solo / combat capability and Wisdom is not much help either. With being able to take Benediction and having Divine Plea, I expect that Holy will be able to grind one-on-one mobs pretty much non-stop without the use of Blessing of Wisdom.

So, Kings is the only blessing that will be of great help when soloing / in combat.

Now, once at level 80 and into 25-man raid healing, getting the additional 3% crit in Sanctified Seals along with something like Pursuit of Justice or Blessed Hands or Aura Mastery will be stronger. But on the way up, Kings is very useful to a Holy Paladin.

Plus, in 5-man and 10-man, you cannot always be sure there will be another Paladin along and Kings is the only way for a Healadin to increase the EH of their tank...be silly not to have it.

So, I expect most Holy Paladins that are not 25-man raiding to pay the 5 talent point "tax" and get Kings....even though they lose out on 3% crit.

Cheers,
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Postby solieu » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:49 am

I'm happy with the amount, or lack thereof, of active emergency abilities.
I believe it gives us flavor (always being at "100%" and being able to go for "110%" with DP and AW, versus Warriors always hovering at "80%" and having a ton of buttons to reach "120%").

I prefer the idea of a passive ability that would also be tempting for other specs to pick up. Two self cast blessings is on the right track, at least.

I remember seeing something like "Improved Blessings" suggested a few weeks ago. I forget the exact details, but I'm imagining something that allows your self-cast blessings to give additional effects, similar to the Blessings Glyphs we were shown before they were changed.

This brings up the possibility of branching Blessing of Sancturay out into the other Blessings.

Give the Imp Blessings version of Kings Sanctuary's mana regen when cast on yourself.
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Postby Vengeful » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:51 am

Hand of Warriors are OTs
Requires 10 Points in Protection

Target takes 20% of your incoming damage for 15 seconds.
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