A guide to Holy Paladins in WoW 3.0

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Ausitn » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:14 pm

Grimmal wrote:
bub64882 wrote:Nice post!

I have been seeing specs posted for Holy that have over 30 points in Ret for Sheath of Light. Did things change? Or were those fringe suggestions anyway?

I'm just curious since you didn't mention Sheath at all.


While it's a good post, he does totally miss out on this.

If you have beta access, try out Ret / Holy mix and I think you'll be surprised how much it competes. You won't hear it from most people, but keep a open mind and try it out yourself. I finally got around to it last night and unless something changes drastically it'll be my choice of spec at 80.


they already changed it, when judgements of the wise gave back 20% of total mana in was aweseome, now its 33% of base mana, which isnt super appealing for holy pallys.
Ausitn
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:01 pm

Postby Grimmal » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:21 pm

Ausitn wrote:they already changed it, when judgements of the wise gave back 20% of total mana in was aweseome, now its 33% of base mana, which isnt super appealing for holy pallys.


Try it out yourself and you'll see what I'm talking about. I tried it on the beta last night and it worked fine for normal 5 mans at the very least with my staying in melee range for all the trash and only stepping out to play old school Holy on boss fights. I had no mana issues between JotW and Divine Plea. Even with the new 33% base mana change.

I haven't tried a 5 man heroic or a 10 man with it, but I'd imagine it'd work just as well for both. Even if you aren't able to stay in range for trash in heroics/raids, you should still easily able to keep up with heals by just stepping back and healing only.

For me at least, the diversity of the build is going to be worth more than Holy Shock and Beacon which is all you loose. Well that and a few percent crit on Holy Light, but you make up the difference with the extra +heal you get...
User avatar
Grimmal
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Aman'Thul

Postby Sharlos » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:32 pm

Some notes:

Judgement of the Crusader was removed, not baked into the other Judgements. When they removed it they upped the damage of all our holy damage to compensate for it.

Sacred shield doesn't have charges, it just lasts 30 seconds.

And Blessing of Sacrifice is a 'short' blessing, not a long one like BoL/BoS.
I hate signatures, but i love irony
User avatar
Sharlos
 
Posts: 1566
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Australia

Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:46 pm

Wow, there's so much that's simply untrue about the playstyle realities that I don't even know where to begin.

Brace yourself, because I LOVE Holy in wrath, it's my favorite spec and probably what I'll be doing full time, and I don't pull any punches.

I've been playing as holy for almost all my time on beta, and here is some things which just happened to jump out at me.

If you are not taking Beacon, you are terrible. Downright terrible. A Paladin without Beacon is only HALF a holy paladin. You will be a terrible raid healer. You will have efficiency problems, throughput problems, self-survivability problems in many fights, and will be AT BEST a sub-par MT spammer, and MT-spam is quite simply no longer even the reality of healing in Wrath encounters.

Sheath is so bad, and requires such a sacrifice, that you are simply being stubborn to shoot yourself in the foot in order to take it. It was bad even back when it was easily accessible. It simply has no realistic value in what you will be called upon to do, or how healing works in wrath.

BoSac is extremely powerful. So is Divine Guardian. Of the two competative Holy specs, one goes into prot down to Divine Guardian and Imp Dev Aura. Divine Guardian in particular lends you tremendous power as a protective FORCE in a raid group to absolutely trivialize what is essentially the only real difficult element there is to most encounters: lots of raid damage. Ask yourself why shaman get stacked so heavily in BC.
The other spec, in case you were curious, is 51/0/20, picking up the 8% more spell crit from ret, and is somewhat more of a selfish build.


Let me emphasise this: THERE IS NO MANA PROBLEM. THERE IS NONE. Even in PvP blues, there never was. Spamming high-cost abilities, while hasted, and having a Holy Light-centric playstyle, I have never ever had a mana problem in any fight in beta.
I have solo-healed patchwerk on 10-man without needing to pot.
There is zero mana problem, and anyone telling you otherwise is using terrible spell selection, overhealing for tons, isn't using glyphs, doesn't know how to use macros or is scared of using Divine Plea for some other reason, Doesn't BoSac, is healing tanks in greens somehow, or else has never actually played on the wrath mechanics.
Wasting yourself by going down to Judgements of the Wise is almost laughable.

Infusion of Light, even nerfed, is the cornerstone of effectiveness as a Holy Paladin. It, combined with Glyph of Holy Light and Beacon, are what MAKE the spec powerful. If without Beacon you are only half a holy paladin, without Infusion of Light you are half a Holy Paladin with curse of tongues.

Salv was baked in to all tanks' threat stances. There is effectively no change, except now you can grant someone of your choice a ~10% threat reduction every so often. It was a buff.

JotCrusader was NOT baked in. It was simply incorporated into all the baseline abilities it affected, and then nerfed promptly right back out again. It no longer exists.

There is no threat problem. Tank threat is rediculous. Your heals still do pathetic amounts of threat. If you ever break 5% threat past the tank using his first successfully landed ability, something is dreadfully wrong with your tank.

Paladins need to take off the haste itemization. We are back to heavy crit-stacking. A lot of the "holy is so terrible and has mana problems" qq is directly due to holy paladins leveling to 80 still wearing their 300 haste rating gear and wondering why they suck. Your gear does not support more than a little bit at itemization levels currently available in beta. If you are choosing haste over crit at t7 level, you are wrong.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Drathian » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:49 pm

Joanadark wrote:Wow, there's so much that's simply untrue about the playstyle realities that I don't even know where to begin.

Brace yourself, because I LOVE Holy in wrath, it's my favorite spec and probably what I'll be doing full time, and I don't pull any punches.

I've been playing as holy for almost all my time on beta, and here is some things which just happened to jump out at me.

If you are not taking Beacon, you are terrible. Downright terrible. A Paladin without Beacon is only HALF a holy paladin. You will be a terrible raid healer. You will have efficiency problems, throughput problems, self-survivability problems in many fights, and will be AT BEST a sub-par MT spammer, and MT-spam is quite simply no longer even the reality of healing in Wrath encounters.

Sheath is so bad, and requires such a sacrifice, that you are simply being stubborn to shoot yourself in the foot in order to take it. It was bad even back when it was easily accessible. It simply has no realistic value in what you will be called upon to do, or how healing works in wrath.

BoSac is extremely powerful. So is Divine Guardian. Of the two competative Holy specs, one goes into prot down to Divine Guardian and Imp Dev Aura. Divine Guardian in particular lends you tremendous power as a protective FORCE in a raid group to absolutely trivialize what is essentially the only real difficult element there is to most encounters: lots of raid damage. Ask yourself why shaman get stacked so heavily in BC.
The other spec, in case you were curious, is 51/0/20, picking up the 8% more spell crit from ret, and is somewhat more of a selfish build.


Let me emphasise this: THERE IS NO MANA PROBLEM. THERE IS NONE. Even in PvP blues, there never was. Spamming high-cost abilities, while hasted, and having a Holy Light-centric playstyle, I have never ever had a mana problem in any fight in beta.
I have solo-healed patchwerk on 10-man without needing to pot.
There is zero mana problem, and anyone telling you otherwise is using terrible spell selection, overhealing for tons, isn't using glyphs, doesn't know how to use macros or is scared of using Divine Plea for some other reason, Doesn't BoSac, is healing tanks in greens somehow, or else has never actually played on the wrath mechanics.
Wasting yourself by going down to Judgements of the Wise is almost laughable.

Infusion of Light, even nerfed, is the cornerstone of effectiveness as a Holy Paladin. It, combined with Glyph of Holy Light and Beacon, are what MAKE the spec powerful. If without Beacon you are only half a holy paladin, without Infusion of Light you are half a Holy Paladin with curse of tongues.

Salv was baked in to all tanks' threat stances. There is effectively no change, except now you can grant someone of your choice a ~10% threat reduction every so often. It was a buff.

JotCrusader was NOT baked in. It was simply incorporated into all the baseline abilities it affected, and then nerfed promptly right back out again. It no longer exists.

There is no threat problem. Tank threat is rediculous. Your heals still do pathetic amounts of threat. If you ever break 5% threat past the tank using his first successfully landed ability, something is dreadfully wrong with your tank.

Paladins need to take off the haste itemization. We are back to heavy crit-stacking. A lot of the "holy is so terrible and has mana problems" qq is directly due to holy paladins leveling to 80 still wearing their 300 haste rating gear and wondering why they suck. Your gear does not support more than a little bit at itemization levels currently available in beta. If you are choosing haste over crit at t7 level, you are wrong.


Thank you for posting this. Thank god for you posting this.

Every single holy paladin needs to read this, recite if before bed every night, and incorporate it into prayer and ritual sacrifice.

No really, you hit every point right on the head.
Image
Drathian
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:01 am

Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:53 pm

Also;

Downranking being gone doesn't hurt us at all.

Sacred Shield doesnt have charges. It just lasts 30 seconds, of which it can proc once every 6 seconds, so 5 procs of a damage absorbtion per cast. No more, no less.

Every Ret Paladin will have Kings, while raiding Prot Paladins mostly will not. Holy Paladins specing for Divine Guardian will also have it.

Also, Intellect is now a wonderful stat for Holy, because it directly increases regen by buffing Plea's effectiveness, as well as granting crit, and scaling with kings.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Sharlos » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:05 pm

Joanadark wrote:Also;

Downranking being gone doesn't hurt us at all.

Sacred Shield doesnt have charges. It just lasts 30 seconds, of which it can proc once every 6 seconds, so 5 procs of a damage absorbtion per cast. No more, no less.

Every Ret Paladin will have Kings, while raiding Prot Paladins mostly will not. Holy Paladins specing for Divine Guardian will also have it.

Also, Intellect is now a wonderful stat for Holy, because it directly increases regen by buffing Plea's effectiveness, as well as granting crit, and scaling with kings.


And replenishment.
I hate signatures, but i love irony
User avatar
Sharlos
 
Posts: 1566
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Australia

Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:06 pm

And replenishment.


Oh yeah, that too!
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Sharlos » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:10 pm

Joanadark wrote:
And replenishment.


Oh yeah, that too!


Glad to hear tho, with the new holy healing mechanics (worthwhile Holy Shock and weaving judgement in with your healing) i'm thinking I will be going holy for Wrath as well. And then maybe ret for the next expansion. Who knows.
I hate signatures, but i love irony
User avatar
Sharlos
 
Posts: 1566
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Australia

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:35 pm

Joanadark wrote:Wow, there's so much that's simply untrue about the playstyle realities that I don't even know where to begin.

<snip awesome>


Thank you!
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:05 pm

Something worth noting. If you beacon yourself, and heal someone else, the healing you do on yourself restores mana through spiritual attunement.

Concerning Glyph of HL. It's proc of 10% healing done by the Holy Light duplicates on the target of the HL himself, effectively increasing the size of your holy lights by 10%. The proc also crits, based on your crit rating, independantly of the primary heal, but multiplied by it.
So..

Holy Light crit for 16k (with 1.6k Glyph heal on top of it)
Glyph then can crit, doing 2.4k healing.

These are real, and very frequent, numbers with fairly low-end gear.

The better your crit gets, the more reliable and massive your AOE splash healing gets.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Levantine » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:09 pm

Joanadark wrote:Something worth noting. If you beacon yourself, and heal someone else, the healing you do on yourself restores mana through spiritual attunement.

Concerning Glyph of HL. It's proc of 10% healing done by the Holy Light duplicates on the target of the HL himself, effectively increasing the size of your holy lights by 10%. The proc also crits, based on your crit rating, independantly of the primary heal, but multiplied by it.
So..

Holy Light crit for 16k (with 1.6k Glyph heal on top of it)
Glyph then can crit, doing 2.4k healing.

These are real, and very frequent, numbers with fairly low-end gear.

The better your crit gets, the more reliable and massive your AOE splash healing gets.


To be completely honest it's about time Paladins got some AoE capabilities to contend with Shaman and Priests. Especially when it doesn't look like Holy Priests are going to be any less potent from what I can see.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10818
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:12 pm

Also, any kind of healing increasing effects, such as Glyph of Seal of Light and Imp Devo Aura, also get double applied onto Glyph of HL splash healing.

So to translate that into the above example. Same situation, except the paladin has Glyph of Seal of Light (5%) and Imp Devo (3%).

Holy Light crit for 17.28k (with 1.7k Glyph heal on top of it)
Glyph then can crit, doing 2.73k healing.

Oh, and all that mess...it's just got beacon-duplicated onto the tank or offtank. If the raid takes a fairly lowish quantity of raid-damage, I can bomb an overheal on someone and all the splash effective healing will still do more tank HPS than chaining FoL on him would.

To give some numbers for comparison, Holy Shock is critting for about 8k for me on beta.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Levantine » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:24 pm

I'm so massively jealous that you get to play with your Holy spec on the Beta. I'm anxious to see how Holy Priests are fairing.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10818
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Postby elson » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:26 pm

Thank you for the response Joannadark. We recently had a holy paladin go rather emo on my guilds forums about how broken and horrible holy is now with the recent nerfs. Myself and another one of our paladins attempted to convince him the spec wasn't broken, and to calm down, with the result of which being him spitting out names and leaving us down a healer for a while.

I knew from my limited experience on the ptr that holy still was capable of monsterous healing but I didn't have the beta experience to back it up. I also knew that the damage intake on tanks was going to be very, very different and even gave some limited numbers from what I had seen of beta parses to back it up.

It's nice to see the testimony of someone who actually IS in beta, and is seeing first hand how to put the holy toolkit to good use.
Zeal without wisdom is folly

My armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... ll&n=Elson
elson
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:49 am

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest