What are we best at? Mitigating steady damage. Lock PLS.

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Postby solieu » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:07 am

Something that I always found as both a blessing and a curse, given our shortage on "Oh-shit" buttons we are almost always at "100%" be it for trash or bosses.

It's easy to give it your all as a paladin, just have your seal up, your threat abilities on cooldown, make sure Consecrate and Holy Shield are going, and you're good to go.

A warrior always has to fight for hitting their "100%". They worry about more things, have to keep their eyes open (abilities like Revenge come to mind), have a few cooldowns that just might have saved the day had they used them at the right time.

Paladins on the other hand are always doing everything they can do. Sadly there's not much extra other than Divine Protection or Avenging Wrath to really get an edge when it's necessary, but that's our trade off.

So *that* is what we are best at.
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Postby fiorina » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:12 am

Read: Easy to learn, almost nothing to master. Hard to say who is better player since all you do is waiting for some long CD. Interactivity based on encounter close to zero. All abilities on global cooldown. yey!
Last edited by fiorina on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby amadiss » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:14 am

fiorina wrote:Honestly dunno why you think Consecration is better for AoE tanking.




I never said that.

But I did say "Of course this depends on encounter design" so I agree with you.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:15 am

fiorina wrote:Read: Easy to learn, almost nothing to master. Hard to say who is better player since all you do is waiting for some long CD. Interactivity based on encounter close to zero. All abilities on global cooldown. yey!


You may want to try a DK as well, they seem to have the type of interaction you consider fun.
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Postby fiorina » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:16 am

amadiss wrote:I never said that.

But I did say "Of course this depends on encounter design" so I agree with you.


I was responding to
aoe tanking - while all tanks can now do it, we're still better at it. and in aoe situations, such as MH trash or tidewalker adds,
threat > T-clap so that things can end asap and get back to the boss, prepare for more adds, or w/e else the raid was doing. only time i ever died when aoe tanking in a raid was because i simply bit off more than i could handle with my current gear and the T-clap effect wouldn't have saved me.


Sorry for my lazy quoting
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Postby solieu » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:19 am

I'm afraid I can't deny that statement, fiorina.

As I said, both a blessing and a curse.
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Postby Playdoh » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:20 am

Part of the fun for the Paladin for me, was doing the research and getting the gear for the stats I needed.

I was told by a Holy Paladin I was a "squishy" tank. I had long since gotten the 491 defense I needed and just scratched my head and wondered how could that be?

That is actually when I did a search and found maintankadin, and saw the layout that explained uncrushable in terms even I could understand.

I went back to my gear, regemmed everything and squeaked out the 102.4% avoidance BEFORE 2.3 badges were out. That was the challenge.

Badge gear really took that aspect out of it, so I am looking forward to doing that part of it again.

Is it really 648 defense rating with the DR calculated in?

A good pally is the one that went out and got the gear :).
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Postby fiorina » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:26 am

Fridmarr wrote:You may want to try a DK as well, they seem to have the type of interaction you consider fun.


Is there someone happy with kind of interaction we have? How about for example:

- Holy shield charges could be "consumed" on demand to increase block value or create protective shield temporarily.

- Holy shield charges could be judged to make your next ability instant

- Reckoning charges could be consumed "by light" (*rolleyes*) to increase parry by 5%

- If you use some holy ability 3 times in a row, you got mastery in it, increasing threat generated by 400% for 10 seconds

Is it that hard to implement this? No honestly, how fun is to wait 8 seconds for next consecration? I understand for new players or AFKers it is imba, but does this satisfy you after 1,2,3 years of tanking?
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:34 am

fiorina wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You may want to try a DK as well, they seem to have the type of interaction you consider fun.


Is there someone happy with kind of interaction we have? How about for example:

- Holy shield charges could be "consumed" on demand to increase block value or create protective shield temporarily.

- Holy shield charges could be judged to make your next ability instant

- Reckoning charges could be consumed "by light" (*rolleyes*) to increase parry by 5%

- If you use some holy ability 3 times in a row, you got mastery in it, increasing threat generated by 400% for 10 seconds

Is it that hard to implement this? No honestly, how fun is to wait 8 seconds for next consecration? I understand for new players or AFKers it is imba, but does this satisfy you after 1,2,3 years of tanking?


I'm not disagreeing with you at all, nor was I trying to be an ass. I'm actually quite bummed that pretty much all of our interactive mitigation is from spamming holy shield, a mechanic which blizzard has said several times is not fun, when referring to the old shield block.

I was sincerely recommending that you try a DK, as they have more skills that seem to be of the type you are looking for. I only did the starting area with them so I could be wrong, but if you aren't having fun with the pally, it couldn't hurt to try one.
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Postby fiorina » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:37 am

I will wait patch or two after release of WotLK, maybe they will improve it significantly (erm) :)
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:40 pm

fiorina wrote:When multiple mobs hits you for 5k each (hi Naxx), then 4 second stun, AoE -20% attack speed and AoE -450 AP reduction is much
much
MUCH
MUUUCH
MUUUUUUUCH

better than 10% more threat. I would trade anytime.


I hear what you're saying and I agree but let's not stack the deck one way and not the other.

Your above assumes not warriors at all in the group.
Bad assumption for a 25man and no one really cares about 10man (for balancing purposes).

With a warrior Demo will be up, period.
With a warrior TC may be up.

Without a Paladin there will be less DR and less Agro because of the lack of Salvation.
Without a Paladin there will be less DR because of the lack of Imp Devo (or Devo period).

Do they even out?
No, but there are more factors to take into account than what you listed.

In Naxx, we will be able to use HW in many situations unless they changed the trash a whole bunch since the last time I was there.
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kayoto » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:44 pm

I don't know why people are continuing to bring up mitigation anymore.

We are pretty much done as far as mitigation is concerned.

What I'm dreading is whenever WotLK Brutallus comes along (i.e. a very difficult DPS check), we're going to be the worst possible tank and not welcomed due to our significantly lower DPS (and possibly TPS at that point).

On that note, a single-target taunt and a little bit more interactivity / non-spammable, active abilities to use would be welcomed also.

I can say for one thing though, we're going to be way, way ahead of where we are currently (in terms of mitigation and interactivity), so we can be thankful for that.
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Postby snowwight » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:16 pm

Kayoto wrote:I don't know why people are continuing to bring up mitigation anymore.

We are pretty much done as far as mitigation is concerned.

What I'm dreading is whenever WotLK Brutallus comes along (i.e. a very difficult DPS check), we're going to be the worst possible tank and not welcomed due to our significantly lower DPS (and possibly TPS at that point).

On that note, a single-target taunt and a little bit more interactivity / non-spammable, active abilities to use would be welcomed also.

I can say for one thing though, we're going to be way, way ahead of where we are currently (in terms of mitigation and interactivity), so we can be thankful for that.


We aren't really "way ahead" of where we are currently. We're 3% ahead, and another 2% to spells.

We are more interactive, but as fiorina is getting at, that interactivity is still rote. I don't know if I will go so far as saying we don't have any way to distinguish ourselves as "good" tanks; tanking is always a little more complex in practice than on paper. But yeah, if you look at the way blizzard designed death knights - the difference between a death knight who knows what he's doing and one who doesn't will be very, very noticeable.
Tankadin since before it was a good idea
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Postby Despotina » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:28 pm

fiorina wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You may want to try a DK as well, they seem to have the type of interaction you consider fun.


Is there someone happy with kind of interaction we have? How about for example:

- Holy shield charges could be "consumed" on demand to increase block value or create protective shield temporarily.

- Holy shield charges could be judged to make your next ability instant

- Reckoning charges could be consumed "by light" (*rolleyes*) to increase parry by 5%

- If you use some holy ability 3 times in a row, you got mastery in it, increasing threat generated by 400% for 10 seconds

Is it that hard to implement this? No honestly, how fun is to wait 8 seconds for next consecration? I understand for new players or AFKers it is imba, but does this satisfy you after 1,2,3 years of tanking?


*raises hand*

Yeah. I love the way the paladin works. Reactive button mashing isn't my thing. I do my little rotation and I free my mind to focus on strat and what is happening with the rest of the fight. I watch threat and I watch dps, and I think about how raid placement is and ways it could be improved. I encourage people who are doing well and I try and gently nudge people who are not.

I dont understand why people want to change our style of play. If you like the way that warriors play, why not play one? Why try and make your paladin into a warrior?

If it isn't fun for you after 2 years or whatever, why are you still doing it? In all that time you could have leveled up and geared up 3 or 4 warriors. Or Druids, or whatever.
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Postby steadypal » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:38 pm

snowwight wrote:We aren't really "way ahead" of where we are currently. We're 3% ahead, and another 2% to spells.




you counting the 3% from bosanc or the assumed added 3% to shield of the templar that is not implemented yet 1 week prior to when the patch is supposed to hit...
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