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What are we best at? Mitigating steady damage. Lock PLS.

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What are we best at? Mitigating steady damage. Lock PLS.

Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:45 pm

Given that GC has let slip that that Shield of the Templar provides 1/2/3% reduced damage, we match warriors for mitigation.

She's also said they're considering making self-buffed Sanctuary a little better than the version on other tanks, so we-edit- AREN'T -edit- permanent OTs to the MT we buff Sanc on.

Both in: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/5/10532280 ... tions.html

There's been some great one para "Tank to Raid Leader" summaries of "Why I'm a great tanking class".

Given:
• We're a competitive MT (all four classes are).
• Our mitigation matches a warrior.

Can anyone think of any thing we're we're flat out better than a warrior.

We have basically the same mechanics. We have the same abilities. They just have a few more things they can do that we can't.

Nothing that makes us non-competitive. I just can't think of anything where we're flat out ahead (other than Blessings/Auras).

The only thing I can think of is Holy Shield - we block pretty much every attack, even tanking 2-3 things at once.

Is HotR + Holy Shield + Consecrate + Ret Aura the highest secondary / tertiary threat of all tanks?
• Druids have Swipe + Thorns
• Warriors Cleave + Damage Shield
• DKs have AE spells

Seems like we'd be ahead?

Maybe that's it:
• Paladin: I'm the best tank at tanking the actual "tank and spank" fights where the boss has no specials - lowest damage and the smoothest. I'm also the best at tanking "Boss + sidekick" - I have the best mitigation against 2-3 things at once, and the highest threat on them as well.
Last edited by knaughty on Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:47 pm

I'd say yes: our damage is generally flatter than a warrior's. However the Warrior has better avoidance (due to critical block) and a nice 1 min burst reducer.

For fights that don't burst, we MAY (probably not) be SLIGHTLY (or not at all) better.
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Re: What are we best at of the four tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:51 pm

Knaughty wrote:Given that GC has let slip that that Shield of the Templar provides 1/2/3% reduced damage, we match warriors for mitigation.

She's also said they're considering making self-buffed Sanctuary a little better than the version on other tanks, so we are permanent OTs to the MT we buff Sanc on.

Both in: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/5/10532280 ... tions.html

There's been some great one para "Tank to Raid Leader" summaries of "Why I'm a great tanking class".

Given:
• We're a competitive MT (all four classes are).
• Our mitigation matches a warrior.

Can anyone think of any thing we're we're flat out better than a warrior.

We have basically the same mechanics. We have the same abilities. They just have a few more things they can do that we can't.

Nothing that makes us non-competitive. I just can't think of anything where we're flat out ahead (other than Blessings/Auras).

The only thing I can think of is Holy Shield - we block pretty much every attack, even tanking 2-3 things at once.

Is HotR + Holy Shield + Consecrate + Ret Aura the highest secondary / tertiary threat of all tanks?
• Druids have Swipe + Thorns
• Warriors Cleave + Damage Shield
• DKs have AE spells

Seems like we'd be ahead?

Maybe that's it:
• Paladin: I'm the best tank at tanking the actual "tank and spank" fights where the boss has no specials - lowest damage and the smoothest. I'm also the best at tanking "Boss + sidekick" - I have the best mitigation against 2-3 things at once, and the highest threat on them as well.


Well, I think it's a lot like you said. We should be smoother and subject to less random bursts, though possibly taking bigger bursts from specials, but that'll depend on the cooldown of the special. Most specials seem to have cooldowns in the 10-15 second range.

I realize we haven't rerun the numbers with that change, but I'm feeling really good right now. No matter what, with 9% passive mitigation and that we'll block more often, I think the perception will change to one of relative equality.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:02 pm

We are the better from the healer's PoV. Cause steady damage will always be > spikes for a healer.
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Postby fiorina » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:15 pm

Actually in full Naxx gear, our threat is the worst, by quite noticeable amount. Hard to say why is this. I blame ShotR nerf vs Revenge buff, have you seen some sick Revenge crits lately? Almost like Kungen on Vashj :)

I will try to play with gear to get more hit/spell dmg(how?)/expertise/block value to see if it helps somehow.

Regarding advantages, umm.. If I use wings, I'll have big snap aggro. Considering many fights in Naxx are just 3 minute long, its not a bad thing.

Hard to say whats next... can't remember any moment from my 30+ Naxx runs when I was like "you see guys, hope you glad you have paladin tank". I can self cleanse myself on Maexxna and Heigan, but thats not that impressive.

DPSers who are hitting 5k DPS will love your HoS, healers will love your HoP, tanks will kill for BoSanc. But those are not tanking tools and could be brought by retri pala which will have replenishent instead of BoSanc and sick DPS.

Oh, maybe one moment... I remember on Kelthuzad, while tanking 2 adds and boss(tank couldn't dodge fissure), I casted LoH on healer in icecube with 1% HP and interrupted Iceblast with glyphed exorcism. Very gimmicky tho.

Ye, Divine Guardian. I never used it, but maybe there will be situations when it could be a major contribution to success. The buff could be clicked off btw in case you don't like it.

Other than that, hard to think about something. Still, demo shout, disarm, sunder, battle res, intervate are way more powerful buffs/debuffs and it would be good to get something similar in this area.
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Re: What are we best at of the four tanks?

Postby Racolus » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:40 pm

Knaughty wrote:Given that GC has let slip that that Shield of the Templar provides 1/2/3% reduced damage, we match warriors for mitigation.


NOTHING atm.

With the possible add-in of ShoT, we are somewhat 'on par' with warriors.

Great question indeed, I have been asking myself this question, and wanted to hear an answer from the devs on this for a long time.

As I stated over and over again, IF we can make out one single edge we are proud of and no other tank can compare, we got our stuff and I can tell someone 'You want me to be MT coz my [insert our edge] is no one can compare!'

Right now, I wish my 'insert' will be - mitigation with shield.
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Postby snowwight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:01 pm

Worldie wrote:We are the better from the healer's PoV. Cause steady damage will always be > spikes for a healer.


The amount of spike in our damage is not really significant as compared to a warrior, is essentially irrelevant. Pretty much evaporates into the randomness of heal amounts, let alone overheal.

GC says we're the best at threat - vs. warriors, that's still true for aoe situations unless there are more than 21 mobs where we start to fall behind. We're worse at aoe mitigation by a good deal though so I'm not that really matters too much. GC also said we're ahead in single target threat though apparently fiorina says otherwise. Now might be a good time to do a spreadsheet and figure it out.
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Postby Omatre » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:17 pm

For overall threat generation, I find it hard to believe that we are going to lag on multi-mob scenario's, I just don't see warriors or druids looking at multi-mob groups and going " let me tank em over the paladin ". The same bias that has held for warriors, does hold true for us in that scenario.

Can druids and warriors hold them now, yes, better than before. Will they excel at it, not like we do.

The 3% mitigation is a nice buff, and one that I was surprised to see hit this late in the game honestly, I expected most other major changes to take place with patch 3.0.1.

It closes the gap everyone was seeing, if it was 5% then, its 2% now, if it was 2% then, its +1% to us now. No matter how you view it, its good, and it will help.
But I never felt we were inferior without it, so I guess my excitement over it pales in comparison to others.
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Postby Norrath » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:24 pm

I think you mean 3.1.0.

The next patch will be 3.0.2.

Do not underestimate the fact that paladins block pretty much everything that isn't avoided.
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Postby Mavrix » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:40 pm

Paladins are the best tanks at being paladins, also. None of the other classes can be tankadins.
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Postby Arcand » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:42 pm

snowwight wrote:GC also said we're ahead in single target threat though apparently fiorina says otherwise.


GC also seems to think that paladins took a great leap forward in competitiveness when crushing blows were removed. I'll be gentle, and simply say that's a reminder she isn't infallible.
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Postby Macha » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:14 pm

We aren't really ahead in single target threat. It doesn't matter too - single target threat is meaningless.

We ARE better at one type of mob now: One with trash/windfury procs. Example: Prince. Example: Shaman at Karathress or however that naga is called.
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Postby fiorina » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:18 pm

I am getting my data from Patchwerk - static fight, spamming abilities on CD with high Holy Shield proc rate.
With slightly better gear my threat is 15-30% behind warrior. He is doing 2300DPS, I am around 1800DPS. See screenshots in other threads.

If DPSer is doing 4k+ DPS, he is threat capped. I have to use HoS and he have to aggro dump to sustain his DPS. In mobility fights like Heigan, DPSers are threat capped even around 3k DPS which is very common.

My gear are standard tanking drops + Tier7. I have 2 expertise gems and 100 hit rating + 140DPS weapon.

I am sure gear could be optimized. I am sure group buffs could be more optimal. But I hardly can see how we are "better in threat" according to GC. Thats not true right now. Especially after recent revenge buff.
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Postby fiorina » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:19 pm

Macha wrote:single target threat is meaningless.


right...
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Postby Mavrix » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:26 pm

Macha wrote:We aren't really ahead in single target threat. It doesn't matter too - single target threat is meaningless.

We ARE better at one type of mob now: One with trash/windfury procs. Example: Prince. Example: Shaman at Karathress or however that naga is called.


Neither of your examples matter particularly. Find examples in content that is future, not past.

Also, if you want to be main tanking, your single target threat is far and away the MOST important threat you have. You can wear whatever the hell kind of gear you want if you need extra threat for trash. What matters for progression is your single-target boss threat in full-on survival oriented tanking gear.
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