Dual Specialization (Update)

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Is Dual Speccing a good idea?

Yes, its Awesome
27
69%
Yes, but im concerned on balance
6
15%
Not bothered
1
3%
No, it needs more restrictions
4
10%
No, terrible idea altogether
1
3%
 
Total votes : 39

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:23 pm

Grothnir wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:This means that they will remove the cost of respeccing for this new DUal Spec feature because it is intended for you to change specs.

See?

Feh. Changing specs is for sissy weasels who can't commit to doing one thing really well ;)

Oh, and for people who want to PVP. Or farm. Or whatever.

In seriousness, though, you're over-stating it. Hyperbolizing, even. It's not that we're "intended" to change spec. It's that they've identified a large segment of the game population who simply likes to change spec. And to service their audience, they are making that available more readily.

That's a VERY far cry from "intended to change specs."

For example, outside of my warrior, I don't think I've ever wanted the capacity to have more than one spec. I only enjoy my paladin as Prot. I only enjoy my priest as Holy/Disc. I only enjoy my mage as Frost. And so on. Dual specs with these classes will simply give me the ability to move around 10-15 points for some extra specialization when I want it.

Telling me that it is intended that we are to change specs in any serious, regular way is telling me that I'm having bad wrong fun.


I think you are reading too much into what I said. I didn't mean that you were going to be forced to utilize the dual spec system in any way. What I meant is, that having multiple specs that you switch between is an emergent behavior of the player base that the developers have decided is worth becoming a basic part of the game. To that end, they're going to implement a system to facilitate it, whereas before it was discouraged (respec cost). Having done this, they will also be making class/talent changes with this capability in mind. That's what I mean by "intended".
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Postby Macawber » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:30 pm

I'm not sure where all the hostility is coming from; nobody is QQing or whining. We're merely pointing out one possible unintended consequence if they do add talent switching during raids: paladins might be under more pressure to heal more often than they would otherwise have to.

The big issue to me is how raids will be designed. Will the required number of tanks change much fight-to-fight? How about the required number of healers? If a 1-tank boss doesn't require extra healers, there's not much problem: the non-tanking tank can dps and everyone is (reasonably) happy. If the 1-tank fight requires more healers, there's a problem. Whether it makes more sense for a tanking druid or paladin to switch to healing, or for a hybrid dps heal and have the tank dps doesn't matter too much: someone is doing something they don't want to do, and that's not fun. I hope that most fights will require the same number of tanks, and the few that don't will be tuned for extra dps and not healing.

Also, a talent like Touched by the Light is especially confusing with dual-specs. Why does it add spell power and extra healing on crits instead of AP and extra damage on crits? Are we supposed to stay prot to heal? I'd be interested to hear a developer's thought process behind talents like this, or their overall philosophy behind dual-specs.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:52 pm

crabcrouton wrote:A lot of people seem to get it into their heads that they rolled a Spec, not a class. This change will be a major wake up call against that kind of thinking.

For example, rolling a Warrior and never expecting to ever tank is kinda loopy imo.

On 1 tank bosses, the tank that wants to do it the most is usually the best one to do it. When someone enjoys something more, he'll always do a better job at it than the guy who's kinda 'meh' about it. He's the guy who spent more time learning the fight, and min/maxing his buffs/rotations/gear. He's goddamn hungry to tank. Be that guy.

Just make sure you're the one who wants to MT the most and that'll guarantee you the spot.


Hasn't done me much good thus far. ;) Only helped on Leothoras in SSC/TK (shield throw = awesome aggro during transitions), Supremus in BT/MH (besides the obvious AoE trash pulls...and same reasons as Leo + Exorcism), and Kalecgos (AR resist set, DS to remove buffs, seemingly high taunt resist).

My point, though, is this: guilds *stuck* (I mean absolutely *STUCK*) on using one tank type over another (probably a Warrior) will force you (the Paladin-trash-tank) to off-heal or off-DPS, with or *without* the dual-spec option on 1-tank boss fights. And these guilds *will* exist. If this upsets someone, then they need to find a guild that will use a Paladin tank. If I'm not tanking at least 25% of the 25man content my guild is facing (4 tanking classes, 4 * 25% = 100%), then I'll be unhappy and finding a new guild.
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Postby Extermi » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:01 am

Personally, I would have been much happier if they would make sure the same number of healers would carry you through every raid evening, and have all 4 tank classes offer enough (DPS/Buff/Debuff) value when not tanking. I think they tried for a while, but especially with arenas, this was probably over constrained.

Still, I do not like spec switching. I agree it makes encounters easier to design (no excuse for switching healers/tanks numbers), but in a way this is against the intention of a talent system - they could have build a base class that would have situational auras (with ooc/CD switch) to make them healers, tanks, whatever.

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Postby Ubung » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:48 am

If we can have 2 specs, one of mine won't be holy.


/agree

On the topic of getting pigeonholed into a healing role you could say the exact same thing to the warrior. You spec fury and ill tank. As people have said on many fights more dps > more healing. You usually bring enough healers for the raid. If your a tank you should be getting tanking roles.

At the same time other classes like priests who were DPS can also switch to a healing role so you could have a shadow priest spec holy while the tank specs ret and smashes faces.

This assumes everyone is gonna be using there dual specs for PVE. Many, many people will be going for one PVP spec and one PVE spec. Us hybrids are weird cus we have a PVE and PVP spec for each spec.

Also regardless of the problems with bosses requiring different amounts of tanks and healers it does allow Blizz a lot of room for encounter design. Although because of the PVE/PVP spec people I dont think they can entirely rely on it. Im still thinking the same as before, really cool but hard to balance.
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Postby Zironic » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:09 am

The main problem I see with how this will be implemented is, how would you motivate taking a rogue/hunter/mage to a raid now?

The shaman/priest/druid/paladin will be doing the same kind of damage, they can pull off CC good enough and they can freely switch between healing/tanking/dps.

What exactly does a pure class offer to a raid that makes up for the ability to change your combat role on the fly?
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Postby Brand » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:27 am

Zironic wrote:The main problem I see with how this will be implemented is, how would you motivate taking a rogue/hunter/mage to a raid now?

The shaman/priest/druid/paladin will be doing the same kind of damage, they can pull off CC good enough and they can freely switch between healing/tanking/dps.

What exactly does a pure class offer to a raid that makes up for the ability to change your combat role on the fly?


Ugh. Everybody with the "What will X bring to the raid if Y can do Z?"

Plain and simple. Skill.

If I find a "pure" class that may not be as versatile in swapping between specs as a "hybrid" class, but the "hybrid" class couldn't talk/play/eat/knit his way out of a paper bag, then there would be no reason to bring him. Same with any class and any player. If I have to choose between two dps classes, the better player (taking gear and skill into the equation) will get the nod.
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Postby Zironic » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:11 am

Generally when you compare classes you're meant to assume equal skill.

I don't want to derail the thread but I don't see why in WotlK a guild would want to maintain more then say 2 active mages(to fill 1 spot).

I think this will change raiding quite a lot, for example karazhan(I know, old low lvl content) is much easier with 2 tanks up to opera, but after that the offtank gets almost nothing to do, now he can just press a button to become a full dps spec for the rest of the raid.

You can also look at Mount Hyjal

First boss: 1 tank
Second boss: 2 tanks(some do 3)
Third boss: 1 tank
Fourth boss: 2 tanks
Last boss: 1 tank

The poor tank that only got something to do every 2nd boss will now get to spec dps in order to make himself more useful.
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Postby Wapner » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:10 am

Brand wrote:
Zironic wrote:The main problem I see with how this will be implemented is, how would you motivate taking a rogue/hunter/mage to a raid now?

The shaman/priest/druid/paladin will be doing the same kind of damage, they can pull off CC good enough and they can freely switch between healing/tanking/dps.

What exactly does a pure class offer to a raid that makes up for the ability to change your combat role on the fly?


Ugh. Everybody with the "What will X bring to the raid if Y can do Z?"

Plain and simple. Skill.

If I find a "pure" class that may not be as versatile in swapping between specs as a "hybrid" class, but the "hybrid" class couldn't talk/play/eat/knit his way out of a paper bag, then there would be no reason to bring him. Same with any class and any player. If I have to choose between two dps classes, the better player (taking gear and skill into the equation) will get the nod.


You're assuming there is going to be a skill difference. What if there is none? In my guild, we are hard pressed to find a major skill difference between most of the players.

But, I also have a feeling this system will change. There needs to be a 4 hour cooldown on the respec. That way people can have a spec they are during raids, and a spec they are whenever they do dailies, pvp, etc. Then the "why bring a rogue when a druid can heal" argument won't matter.
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Postby Ubung » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:25 am

You're assuming there is going to be a skill difference. What if there is none? In my guild, we are hard pressed to find a major skill difference between most of the players.


I think its reasonable to assume that should skill not be a factor in choosing the player that joins the raids the next thing to consider is the most friendly. Then you can go to the most loyal or the guy/gal with the best raid attendance.

As people have said it is entirely feasible to send someone to respec in mere minutes now anyway so as long as you declare your spec then you shouldnt have any problems unless your already respeccing during raids.

Also many buffs are now common amongst the classes but it still benfits the raid to have a variety of different classes and not all hybrids who can respecc easily.
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Postby Somrael » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:54 am

I was also under the impression that Blizzard had been stating repeatedly that they wanted to "simplify" raids... that's why there's going to be so much buff overlap, right? I really don't think that Blizzard is going to start tailoring raids to people switching spec between every boss fight. That's a complete step backwards. Not to mention, collecting two entirely disparate gear sets is going to be arduous for a lot of people; how long does it take a paladin to find a full T6 level set, and now people expect them to show up with two? I do think that this will be fantastic for PvP, grinding, dailies, doing a little more DPS when the warrior wants a shot at tanking and we're second string that fight, etc., and I can only see this being positive. That, and it will favor specs in many cases where the gear can somewhat overlap; elemental/resto for shammies, balance/resto for druids, etc. I think that a lot of GMs are going to realize that trying to stuff a tank into a healer role will be detrimental given the tremendous difference in gear, not to mention glyphs, consumables, mods and plain style of play.
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Postby Bk992004 » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:11 am

Wapner wrote:You're assuming there is going to be a skill difference. What if there is none? In my guild, we are hard pressed to find a major skill difference between most of the players.


If you have that many skilled players, and now different specs for different encounters, just be smart about putting groups together and now you have 2 raid teams with no extra work. Gratz.

Wapner wrote:But, I also have a feeling this system will change. There needs to be a 4 hour cooldown on the respec. That way people can have a spec they are during raids, and a spec they are whenever they do dailies, pvp, etc. Then the "why bring a rogue when a druid can heal" argument won't matter.


There's not a 4hr cooldown for changing specs now, why the hell would the implement an idea like this? Right now it takes 10sec to hearth, up to 2min to get to trainer (depending on where you hearth or where mage ports you), and 10sec to be resummoned (if you have a lock) to just a few min (if they have to get to stone).

The only guilds that would do what you're talking about are already doing what you're talking about, this just makes it 3min faster.
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Postby steadypal » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:16 am

maybe the gold cost still pops up and u have to pay each respec??


this is just saving the raid time for having to hearth and resummon ppl maybe?
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Postby Zironic » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:37 am

steadypal wrote:maybe the gold cost still pops up and u have to pay each respec??


this is just saving the raid time for having to hearth and resummon ppl maybe?


That would defeat the entire point, the purpose was obviously so people could switch between pve/pvp(or raid vs farming spec, sucks to be tanking specced outside of an instance) spec without paying a fortune. When I was actively raiding AND pvp'ng with my mage I paid 300g+ per week in respec cost alone.
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Postby Katamai » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:55 am

I just hope most people will be in decent guilds that allow them to chose their 2nd spec instead of forcing them to go holy.

I know it'll be a struggle for some though.

Without a cd on respec it sounds a lot like "Tank trash, spec holy for bosses kk?" though...
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