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Where is the new Protection 11 1-Point Talent?

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Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:24 pm

Daiden wrote:I know this is going to sound like a stupid question, but what is this whole concept of a "11 point talent" that everyones in arms about?
Every talent tree has a single 1 point talent at the 11, 21, 31, 41, and 51 mark. In Beta, we are missing our 11 point talent due to Kings being split into 5 points and moved to tier 1.
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Postby bub64882 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:26 pm

Daiden wrote:I know this is going to sound like a stupid question, but what is this whole concept of a "11 point talent" that everyones in arms about?


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 2138&sid=1

Basically every tree of every class, EXCEPT Prot Paladins have a 1 point talent that requires 10 points in the tree to obtain. It's often worth taking. :)
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Postby Petrus » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:27 pm

steadypal wrote:
daemonym wrote:
deuce wrote:warriors and druids both get last stand at 11 so why not pallies?


because we have a buffed lay on hands baseline would be my guess but not positive tho.



ya but we can cast lay on hands on others, they cant do that with last stand



WTB last stand PST


More like WTB Hand Stand PST

Increases your max health by 30% and heals you to full ALL WHILE INVERTING YOUR CHARACTER

>.>
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Postby Alberich » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:27 pm

Daiden wrote:I know this is going to sound like a stupid question, but what is this whole concept of a "11 point talent" that everyones in arms about?


Every class/spec combination in the game has a 1 point talent on tier 3 that requires 10 points in that tree to obtain... except Protection spec Paladins. They're not always stellar or defining of that tree (see also: Aura Mastery), sometimes they are though (see: Seal of Command).
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Postby deuce » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:42 pm

On the kings debate...

I see Kings as a must for ret.. there just isnt anything else PvE to spend the last 5 points on... Holy probalbly wants to go 52/0/18 to get 5/5 conviction and 3/3 SS... When it comes to 25 man raiding, if you only bring one prot pally, it seems a waste for him to be the only one with kings as he will either give himself kings or sanc not both... I see kings as Ret before holy before prot... I will probably spec into kings for a month or so until i get into 25 man raids...

As for the 11 pointer...

I see something with a cooldown (30 sec to 3 min)... Like disarm or 100% chance to block next attack (or 3 or 5??)... Todays patch - 9038 was quite small... I doubt we will get an 11 pointer at 3.0...
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Postby Seraphia » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:11 pm

Something to deal with casters is my hope.

One thing I've noticed with my "scientific" testing on the PTR, is magical damage. We still don't have any real way to deal with it, we sorta just tank it with our faces still (Druids also have this issue).

Warrior's have their interrupts and Spell Reflect.
DeathKnight's have their interrupts and their Magic Zone Bubble stuff.


So it got me thinking, what if the answer to a 11 point talent and our lack of anti-caster ability could be solved deceptively simple.


Holy Divine Ardent Righteous Shield Blocking of Justice
-Your shield also blocks magical damage and effects.


We can block or deflect magical damage the same way we deal with melee damage. It would still fit the current 'theme' between Warrior blocking and Paladin Blocking. A Warrior's Spell Reflect is less often but more dramatic, where our blocking would be more often and reliable, but not as influencing as a real reflection.

Similar to how Holy Shield and Shield Block stack up currently.

It would also allow Prot Paladins some PvP viability, while also ensuring it wouldn't somehow overpower Holy or Ret paladins. By attaching it to our Blocking, this naturally excludes any real benefit for Ret and limits the power for Holy. With Redoubt and Holy Shield so deep in Protection, non-Prot paladins have at best 5-10% Block rate?

That way a Prot Paladin could perform in PvP similarly to a Prot Warrior. Might not be the largest source of DPS, but it's a source you can't easily remove or CC.

In PvE, the benefit is fairly obvious and straight forward. You'd take less magical damage! In a way you could control to some degree. You would also stop a fair amount of negative effects from spells. Simply block that fear instead of being forced to eat it in a 5 man. Exceptions could be made for spells that aren't blockable, the same way some spells can't be reflected or interrupted.

The Mechanism to block ranged attacks already exists, so it is possible to determine if a spell cast is in our blocking arc or not. It's also another 'safeguard' against becoming too powerful, by ensuring a Paladin has to devote attention to where attacks are coming from and keeping them within the arc.


They could even link it to the Sanc/HolyShield/HolyFrisbee/ImpHolyFrisbee talent chain :P
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Postby Passionario » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:15 am

Keep in mind that the 11-pointer should be something that a new soon-to-be 20 Paladin would want to acquire.
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Postby Sark » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:18 am

Passionario wrote:Keep in mind that the 11-pointer should be something that a new soon-to-be 20 Paladin would want to acquire.


much like holy paladins scrambling to pick up aura mastery?

:P
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Postby Katamai » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:19 am

Sark wrote:much like holy paladins scrambling to pick up aura mastery?

:P


ZING! :P
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KILL... THEM... ALL!
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Postby q111 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:38 am

My suggestion would be:

Hand of Sanctuary
6% base Mana 5 Minutes Cooldown
Instant Cast 30y Range
(Magic Effect, dispellable)
When activated, this ability temporarily grants the target 20% of the maximum health from the target for 20 sec. After the effect expires, the health is lost. Causes Exhausion.

A little bit lower than the other Last Stands, but its a "Hand"-spell and castable on other targets. But it is also a magic-effekt and dispellable in PvP.

Exhausion would be a new debuff that works like Forbearance, but only for "Last Stand" abilities. The target gains a debuff as long as the Cooldown of the "Last Stand" ability, that he used.

And it is easy to implement, because the mechanic is here and thats something the devs can implement this only by rolling their head on the keyboard.
Last edited by q111 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Katamai » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:13 am

q111 wrote:My suggestion would be:

Hand of Sanctuary
6% base Mana 5 Minutes Cooldown
Instant Cast 30y Range
(Magic Effect, dispellable)
When activated, this ability temporarily grants the target 20% of the maximum health from the target for 20 sec. After the effect expires, the health is lost.

A little bit lower than the other Last Stands, but its a "Hand"-spell and castable on other targets. But it is also a magic-effekt and dispellable in PvP.

And it is easy to implement, because the mechanic is here and thats something the devs can implement this only by rolling their head on the keyboard.


Warrior + LS + SW + HoSanct = kekekek
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KILL... THEM... ALL!
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Postby deuce » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:17 am

q111 wrote:My suggestion would be:

Hand of Sanctuary
6% base Mana 5 Minutes Cooldown
Instant Cast 30y Range
(Magic Effect, dispellable)
When activated, this ability temporarily grants the target 20% of the maximum health from the target for 20 sec. After the effect expires, the health is lost.

A little bit lower than the other Last Stands, but its a "Hand"-spell and castable on other targets. But it is also a magic-effekt and dispellable in PvP.

And it is easy to implement, because the mechanic is here and thats something the devs can implement this only by rolling their head on the keyboard.


I disagree... Making it useable on another means we ARE GOING TO BE EXPECTED TO USE IT ON OTHER TANKS... This makes benifits all oother tanks as much as ourselves... While I am not selfish, I dont think Pallies need another Powerful ability willl benifits everyone in the raid (lay hands, Blessings, Heart of the crusader etc)
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Postby q111 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:01 am

Katamai wrote:Warrior + LS + SW + HoSanct = kekekek


Yes, thats true, it should not stack with similar abilities, because this would be to powerful.

@ deuce
Maybe i'm wrong with my suggestion, but i don't think that the paladin should have selfish abilities; he is a class that can support wounderful himself and other classes, and that should not change

But to make it more selfish i have another idea:

Hand of Sanctuary
6% base Mana 5 Minutes Cooldown
Instant Cast 30y Range
(Magic Effect, dispellable)
When activated, this ability temporarily grants the target 20% of the maximum health from the target for 20 sec. After the effect expires, the health is lost. Causes Exhausion.

Exhausion would be a new debuff that works like Forbearance, but only for "Last Stand" abilities. The target gains a debuff as long as the Cooldown of the "Last Stand" ability, that he used.

That means a Warrior only can use his own last stand or the Last stand of the Paladin. And i'm sure that a warrior use his ability and a Palatank only have to use his for himself, but he also can save someone with this ability if Hand of Protection is on Cooldown.
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Postby Morganim » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:20 am

Melathys wrote:http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=501000000000000000000000000050000000000000000000000001450053500310251533312321

I think thats the spec I'm looking at now. Has 2 points free that I don't know what to do with, lol. Having a true 11 point talent would account for one of them. Though, I could forgo kings, and have 5 more points, but idk. If other pallies refrained from kings because I have it, that leaves me with kings or sanctuary.. ugh.

what would be an interesting 11 point talent. Give us a permanent effect of blessing of kings, but the actual blessing no longer has any effect.


Just curious, do you run with a ret palaidn.

If not 3/3 heart of the crusader is a must imo (i will be picking it up now reckoning sucks)
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Postby deuce » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:27 pm

q111 wrote:Exhausion would be a new debuff that works like Forbearance, but only for "Last Stand" abilities. The target gains a debuff as long as the Cooldown of the "Last Stand" ability, that he used.

That means a Warrior only can use his own last stand or the Last stand of the Paladin. And i'm sure that a warrior use his ability and a Palatank only have to use his for himself, but he also can save someone with this ability if Hand of Protection is on Cooldown.


As for being selfish, I dont wanna hear raid leader say "The warrior will tank this, Paladin use your Hand of Sanctuary on him so he can have 2 last stands." You did negate this arguement with your edit... So now would a pally tank waste the cooldown of this on a healer or DPS? Probably not if you are the primary tank in a 25 man raid... I think the 11 point talent should be a self only talent that improves mitigation or survivability or threat... Making the ability require a shield would allow it to become more powerful - because the last thing ret needs is a buff from an easy to get 11 point talent (assume PVE ret gets 5/5 kings and 5/5 Divine Strength)...

I would bet money that if this was a discussion involving warrior tanks, there would never be an arguement that an ability needs to be less selfish... Paladins bring more selfless (lay hands, blessings, auras, hand spells etc) ablities warriors (shouts, sunder armor etc)...

Last stand is not my first choice - making all the tanks have the same abilities is boring...
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