GC gives in, we're on par!!! ^UPDATES^

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GC gives in, we're on par!!! ^UPDATES^

Postby Orms » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:02 am

updates on page 20 and page 27. page 31 (shield of the templar gives +1/2/3% damage reduction)!

We test a lot of different ways. We test characters alone, self buffed and raid buffed. We do very controlled tests and we do tests where we just tell a skilled player to go nuts and we do actual raids. We get a lot of information from outside Blizzard as well, but you asked about how we test.

It's difficult to know exactly when a tank is going to end using their cooldowns. Sometimes it's probably fine to spam them and other times they need to be saved for a very specific situation. Which abilities you use is also determined by what classes are present in the rest of your group. That's just another reason to gather a large body of data.

We think the paladin and warrior are pretty close now. I do have some concerns about eventual scaling problems now that block is so good. Critical Block may end up letting warriors bypass paladins eventually, but that will be a few raid tiers from now, so we'll have plenty of time to evaluate the situation and make adjustments if necessary.

You're still going to have a hard time convincing me that 2% mitigation difference will determine which class everyone uses for their MT. Consider:

1) You're going to have a hard time even knowing what that number is. Unless a few really eloquent theorycrafters manage to convince the entire raiding community, most of the time you're going to have to rely on actual raid data to make decisions, and that kind of variance is going to be really hard to detect.

2) Every boss is different. Mitigation deltas may be miniscule on a slow-hitting boss but noticeable on a fast-hitting boss for instance.

3) A difference likes 2% assumes both tanks have the best gear possible for their slot. Gear can make a very big difference in mitigation, yet you tend to see guilds stick with their MT for a long time. You don't suddenly drop your guy when someone with a better shield and 10% more mitigation comes along. Why? Because your guy's loyalty, dependability, knowledge or sense of humor is more important than that 10% difference.

4) Don't forget player skill has a huge role in here too. I've done Archimonde with an MT that couldn't stance dance to save his life. But despite that er... handicap, the group is on M'uru or something now. Yeah I know, everyone has antecdotes. The moral of my story is that if a tank who can't use his cooldowns can make it to Sunwell, surely the tank with 2% less mit can. If min-maxing tumped all, they would have dumped him.

5) Paladins and druid tanks are already tanking a lot of content in BC, and that's in spite of the current design (i.e. the BC version, not the LK one) that warriors are the best single boss tanks. And, in spite of things like crushing blows. And, in spite of the difficulties druids and paladins had getting gear. If they can tank already when they're supposed to be OTs, then they should probably be great when we are actively trying to make them MTs.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#46
Last edited by Orms on Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Sharlos » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:13 am

That's weird, I didn't see anything resembling "GC basically tells us to STFU we're not getting changed" in that post and i'd have to agree with GC there. 2% difference is negligble and nigh on undetectable in a raid environment where the RNG will have a bigger effect than that 2% will.

Now if the difference is more than 2% then people may have a cause for concern but when you get to te point of 1-3% difference I'd say we are as equal as anyone can reasonably expect. If they were to make any more changes, they'd more than likely skew the difference to more than 2%.

Additionally, you should avoid such sensationalism in your posts, this isn't the american media.
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Postby Celestira » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:18 am

Where is GC getting 2% from? Isn't it 4 + percent along with inferior BV scaling?
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Postby Orms » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:19 am

The original question had to do with how they got their numbers, GC dodged the question then said that 2% (their number I guess) is fine then said "You're still going to have a hard time convincing me that 2% mitigation difference will determine which class everyone uses for their MT." to me thats her saying we're not going to even get on par with warriors mitigation.
Last edited by Orms on Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Candiru » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:19 am

I think GC Isn't counting shield block from the sounds of the "cooldown" bit.
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Postby Celestira » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:22 am

I'm thinking lower starting mitigation plus lower health along will get a lot of us sidelined, especially since we don't scale as well either so there is no bright future to have raid leaders look to.
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Postby Bobness » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:23 am

Whilst this may not seem overly encouraging, it does seem to leave the door open for a reasoned discussion if data can be provided that offers a a well reasoned counterpoint.
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Postby Infernosaint » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:29 am

i don't care if 2 % isn't gamebreaking.. Min max guilds will know it, and the choice between a similary skilled and geared warrior and pally is easy.. Other guilds look up to the min maxing guilds.. of course this wont mean that we wont get to tank, bu that doesn't make it fucking FAIR.. Of course a guilds old MT wont be replaced like that if another guy comes around with 2% more mitigation, but getting to be that MT in the first place will be harder.

Just give us some imba blocking, maybe take some from warriors, and make us comparable overall, and better at fast hitters or w/e
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Postby Vanqadin » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:33 am

i kinder enjoyed reading this blue post. Ok in some peoples eyes 2% shoulnt be there but for me im just happy that bliz has buffed us to point warriors dont need to be the only MT. They even saw the scaling of crit block and told us it may need fixing. I dont see any "STFU" at all here....
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Postby Katamai » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:36 am

I don't think the real issue is in how many % we are close to or worse than warriors. I think what's pissing people off is the fact that they keep repeating "we want all tanks to be equal MTs" yet they keep saying they're fine with us being the lowest on that tanking list.

It's not that we have SOME advantages like we had in TBC to make up for those deficiencies. Now that all tanks can easily AoE tank and we lost our health scaling, we're dead last with nothing to make up for it.
Last edited by Katamai on Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Macha » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:37 am

Sharlos wrote:Now if the difference is more than 2% then people may have a cause for concern but when you get to te point of 1-3% difference I'd say we are as equal as anyone can reasonably expect. If they were to make any more changes, they'd more than likely skew the difference to more than 2%.


There'd be an easy way to make us more or less equal: Raise Righteous Fury. This is not difficult, and it is not unreasonable to be brought up to par.
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Postby Strendarr » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:38 am

personally I'm absolutely stoked about the changes

If you're paying attention, compared side by side our class is getting improved a lot more than warriors are from BC ----> WOTLK.

The ability of people to find a dark centre in every cloud not only bothers me, it worries me that eventually it'll make the blizzard admins throw up their hands and be like "screw it, there's no pleasing these people"

which really if you think about it, has already happened. Look at how rarely admins post in class forums anymore.
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Re: GC basically tells us to STFU we're not getting changed

Postby Stilgarr » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:40 am

Orms wrote:3) A difference likes 2% assumes both tanks have the best gear possible for their slot. Gear can make a very big difference in mitigation, yet you tend to see guilds stick with their MT for a long time. You don't suddenly drop your guy when someone with a better shield and 10% more mitigation comes along. Why? Because your guy's loyalty, dependability, knowledge or sense of humor is more important than that 10% difference.

4) Don't forget player skill has a huge role in here too. I've done Archimonde with an MT that couldn't stance dance to save his life. But despite that er... handicap, the group is on M'uru or something now. Yeah I know, everyone has antecdotes. The moral of my story is that if a tank who can't use his cooldowns can make it to Sunwell, surely the tank with 2% less mit can. If min-maxing tumped all, they would have dumped him.

5) Paladins and druid tanks are already tanking a lot of content in BC, and that's in spite of the current design (i.e. the BC version, not the LK one) that warriors are the best single boss tanks. And, in spite of things like crushing blows. And, in spite of the difficulties druids and paladins had getting gear. If they can tank already when they're supposed to be OTs, then they should probably be great when we are actively trying to make them MTs.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#46


erm if the guild is serious about progression they will take every advantage they can so that bloke with the 10% will be taken almost right off the bat.
If he is a tit or not in keeping with the ethos of the guild, then fair enough he'd fail the trial (maybe) or move on to the next guild anyways.
10% is a huge amount of mitigation to not take on a run.

Player skill does come into play but GC forgets one very large problem. The player actually has to be in a position to show how capable they are. If she compared how many Paladin tanks got a flat "no you cant tank /decline" to how many "erm you got one shot to prove yourself" in both 5, 10 and 25 man runs I have a feeling fewer people get given the chance than she thinks.
Player skill when they have no way of showing / proving sadly counts for jack.

Paladins and Druids are Tanking despite Blizzards attempts to push Warriors as he only MT's for years. At least she could be honest about it.
Crushing blows played into our advantage more than a warriors imo so dont know why she brought that up, in some fights we were ahead of then but only after some fixing.

Blizz are now stating they want all 4 tanks to be viable, yet still know we fall behind by 2% (more if you listen to trusted sources), still know that block will be an issue in T7 and still expect Guilds and players to reverse the thinking they had drilled into them (with help from Blizz indirectly) that Warriors are the only real choice in tanks.

erm GL with that GC, your really going to need it. Personally I hope it works out, I love this class and spec. I just slowly loosing hope that Blizz get it close to right.
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Postby Eaglestrike » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:43 am

Honestly, I think I'm doing ok now.

We need to consider this:

2% is total damage taken (and of course not the exact number...but whatever) however if you look at how this damage will be coming in the paladin will take a more constant stream of lower damage hits and warrior will be a bit more of a "spike" in damage taken, since critical block is random chance and shield block only has a 25% max uptime. With this we'll take a consistent amount of damage and thus could be said to be easier to keep up than the warrior over the course of a fight.

We scale for consistent mitigation (we have +15% str to warriors +6%) and warriors are still spiky. So even as we scale we scale to be more consistent which will make our "usual" role of streamrolling through farm content scale better than a warrior.

They are taking things into perspective and trying to keep us up there. If they see we're far behind they'll pull a 2.3 on us and give us a big boost. If perception is that we're weak we will get a buff to help us be up there.

Until I see more number crunching to make this a whole lot bigger than a 2% difference on most content I think I'm alright with where we are now. That or until I start having guild leaders laugh at me when I apply wanting to be a MT as a paladin (and this happens a number of times not just once). Although I still would love to see more buffs.

She did mention gear as an issue. As it stands now I've had to OT or sit out some fights on the basis of my class even when I had better gear than the warrior tank for fights. If that's no longer the case, I'll be happy with that. For at least early WotLK if you're serious and make an effort to get good gear you should be the best tank for whatever you want to do unless against someone with just as much work in their character as you, which I don't mind "losing" to. If you can find people to run with early in WotLK you should be able to keep your MT position the whole time, so I guess that should be our goal :P
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:44 am

As if you'd think I'd let things like this slide.

Offered my (rather long) feedback here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#70
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