Mitigation Comparisons – 4 tanks

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:08 am

moduspwnens wrote:The scaling isn't super relevant because the stats on our gear won't be consistent. If they continue to give us block rating past what will get us to 102.4%, there will be problems, and they've given us enough for 102.4% in Naxx.

No, as I've said, a sample size of one is the statistical equivalent of stabbing in the dark. But the alternative is to guess, in which case the graphs would just be some random lines.

It's not going to tell you what mitigation will be like in 6 months time, its going to show any large inconsistencies in stat scaling, assuming as you say, the theoretical consistency of spending.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:10 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:The scaling isn't super relevant because the stats on our gear won't be consistent. If they continue to give us block rating past what will get us to 102.4%, there will be problems, and they've given us enough for 102.4% in Naxx.

No, as I've said, a sample size of one is the statistical equivalent of stabbing in the dark. But the alternative is to guess, in which case the graphs would just be some random lines.

It's not going to tell you what mitigation will be like in 6 months time, its going to show any large inconsistencies in stat scaling, assuming as you say, the theoretical consistency of spending.


Certainly, but I'm looking at two lines basically on top of each other that diverge as the scale increases. If you take into account that Paladins won't stack block rating past 102.4%, it'll probably cover that divergence. Right?
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:20 am

moduspwnens wrote:Certainly, but I'm looking at two lines basically on top of each other that diverge as the scale increases. If you take into account that Paladins won't stack block rating past 102.4%, it'll probably cover that divergence. Right?

It would tighten it, but not entirely cover. Theres still superior BV scaling involved.

But you're right, it's safe to say that differences between paladins and warriors is more gear than design.
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Postby Ezikiel » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:51 am

this might be a stupid question but doesnt redoubt and AD cover the 1% migitation difference on boss fights?
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Postby dwarftank » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:36 am

I think it's fair to assume that if Ardent Defender and the possibility of a damage spike following a parry were added to this model it would show paladins slightly ahead of both warriors and DK's.

Of course that position isn't necessarily unreasonable considering the model doesn't take into account every possible encounter type.
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Postby snowwight » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:48 am

Interesting on the health scaling. I know some others had done math suggesting that taking the ranged slot into account, we wouldn't catch up until the ~3000-4000 stam mark. The difference is pretty minor however.
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Postby majiben » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:54 am

snowwight wrote:Interesting on the health scaling. I know some others had done math suggesting that taking the ranged slot into account, we wouldn't catch up until the ~3000-4000 stam mark. The difference is pretty minor however.


Without modeling AD, or blocks but including the gun slot it would take 4,344 stamina pre scalars to break even on EH. This really isn't so bad compared to the 12k we needed before. With AD and block the gap gets smaller. We also bring all our own buffs and debuffs expect for an AP reduction (and having to pick kings or sanc).
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:58 am

dwarftank wrote:possibility of a damage spike following a parry were added to this model it would show paladins slightly ahead of both warriors and DK's.

Of course that position isn't necessarily unreasonable considering the model doesn't take into account every possible encounter type.

I can model both of those. Parry thrash would be a little more complex than I feel I can go (how often does each class attack? You'd need to do a full output and input sheet for all four classes, yikes)

Some other damage scenarios are definitely worth a look though.
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Postby Norrath » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:38 pm

Majiben wrote:
snowwight wrote:Interesting on the health scaling. I know some others had done math suggesting that taking the ranged slot into account, we wouldn't catch up until the ~3000-4000 stam mark. The difference is pretty minor however.


Without modeling AD, or blocks but including the gun slot it would take 4,344 stamina pre scalars to break even on EH. This really isn't so bad compared to the 12k we needed before. With AD and block the gap gets smaller. We also bring all our own buffs and debuffs expect for an AP reduction (and having to pick kings or sanc).


A human paladin breaks even with a human warrior at ~4032 stamina, taking talents and Kings into account.
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Postby majiben » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:06 pm

Norrath wrote:
Majiben wrote:
snowwight wrote:Interesting on the health scaling. I know some others had done math suggesting that taking the ranged slot into account, we wouldn't catch up until the ~3000-4000 stam mark. The difference is pretty minor however.


Without modeling AD, or blocks but including the gun slot it would take 4,344 stamina pre scalars to break even on EH. This really isn't so bad compared to the 12k we needed before. With AD and block the gap gets smaller. We also bring all our own buffs and debuffs expect for an AP reduction (and having to pick kings or sanc).


A human paladin breaks even with a human warrior at ~4032 stamina, taking talents and Kings into account.


Are you refering to HP or EH? I was talking about EH though I didn't state it. Yours sounds close to what would be need to make HP equal.
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Postby Mneme » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:12 pm

Not sure if anyone has said this yet, but our tier gear is the same ilvl as the non-tier gear dropping in these instances so far. You'll no longer be giving up the extra armor and whatnot that comes with a higher ilvl if you like the stats on non-tier gear better. You might lose a set bonus, but those aren't usually that important.
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Postby Norrath » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:44 am

Majiben wrote:
Norrath wrote:
Majiben wrote:
snowwight wrote:Interesting on the health scaling. I know some others had done math suggesting that taking the ranged slot into account, we wouldn't catch up until the ~3000-4000 stam mark. The difference is pretty minor however.


Without modeling AD, or blocks but including the gun slot it would take 4,344 stamina pre scalars to break even on EH. This really isn't so bad compared to the 12k we needed before. With AD and block the gap gets smaller. We also bring all our own buffs and debuffs expect for an AP reduction (and having to pick kings or sanc).


A human paladin breaks even with a human warrior at ~4032 stamina, taking talents and Kings into account.


Are you refering to HP or EH? I was talking about EH though I didn't state it. Yours sounds close to what would be need to make HP equal.


Health.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:01 am

Been playing around with other situations as I felt an isolated case migth favour one class or another, as well as experimenting with what else we can test and show using this model. Suggestions most welcome.

Current main graph

Graph from the current version of the sheet.

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Shield Block

I thought it would be useful, as we're not certain on shield block usage to see survival rates with and without. I'm actually now of the opinion that the unique tanking perspective that we were seeking involves not having to carefully use cooldowns to compete (bears share this, but are significantly different mitigation wise). Not that being the lazy tank is a great unique stance, but arguably it allows for more complex threat considerations etc.

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Death Knight cooldowns

Similar graph of Unbreakable Armour and Icebound Fortitude. Still somewhat concerned by DK's avoidance. Even with diminishing returns its extreme. If we see a dual wield boss with a penalty, they could happily cap.

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Increased Damage

No gear scaling this time, but increasing damage input. Interesting to see that being unhittable is more valuable than critically blocking at lower damage levels (essentially BV capping warriors)

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I also tried increasing numbers of mobs as a graph, but its comparative result depends entirely on where you place their damage. I built a loose HS charge/redoubt model that kept paladins block rates at around unhittable until the teens of mobs. At lower damage levels, block rates rather than amounts excel.

I am personally quite comfortable with how paladins are at this point (assuming the shield of the templar buff). I feel we have advantages and disadvantages, similarities and uniqueness. I believe the differences between us and the baseline tanking model that is warrior is more gear than class. Which is all where it should be.

As such I don't feel this needs taken to the beta forums, as the developers data appears to match our own. I think it highlights some potential issues in bears and dks, but I think it's likely that developers are aware. Death Knights change almost daily, and they've already discussed bears current status. That said, I'd be more than willing to help anyone who wants to go to the forums with any of the analysis.
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Postby Widdox » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:58 pm

Thanks for all your work, it has been real nice to have some at least theoretical data numbers to look at.
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:06 pm

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I'm guessing the line that goes way up is the Warrior with Shield Block active?

Not only do you have two lines saying "warr wo/SB" but I can barely tell the difference in color between the two ;)
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