Mitigation Comparisons – 4 tanks

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Postby Fizzgig » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:53 pm

And as block value goes up it only gets spikier (that's not even a real word but you get me :D)

If we're talking 60% avoidance if the other 40% some odd amount of the time I can have a steadier amount of damage in I'd rather that than "Awesome he critically blocked that!!! Now I have 34% overhealing instead of 28%!"

*edit* speaking from a healer perspective here which I've done quite a bit as well
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Postby Embher » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:27 pm

Can you please add spamming Sacred Shield http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53601 every 6s on yourself as a paladin tank. Assume it is another tank blockign mechanism.

Though this is 12% mana atm on Beta.

It does scale with spell dmg on beta, I believe, but I do not have an account on Beta. I'm going by comments on the web page.

Assume .75 spell dmg coefficient. Then maybe add 0.35 AP coefficient....for another test.
Look at the comments in the page on wotlk.wowhead.com http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53601
from players on Beta, especially the comment from serpentea at the top of the comment page.
Remember a paladin gets +spell dmg from Stam talent and AP from strength.
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Postby snowwight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:48 pm

Embher wrote:Can you please add spamming Sacred Shield http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53601 every 6s on yourself as a paladin tank. Assume it is another tank blockign mechanism.

Though this is 12% mana atm on Beta.

It does scale with spell dmg on beta, I believe, but I do not have an account on Beta. I'm going by comments on the web page.

Assume .75 spell dmg coefficient. Then maybe add 0.35 AP coefficient....for another test.
Look at the comments in the page on wotlk.wowhead.com http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53601
from players on Beta, especially the comment from serpentea at the top of the comment page.
Remember a paladin gets +spell dmg from Stam talent and AP from strength.


Sacred shield will probably be cast on you by the Holy paladin, regardless of what tanking class you are.
Tankadin since before it was a good idea
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Postby Embher » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:51 pm

snowwight wrote:
Embher wrote:Can you please add spamming Sacred Shield http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53601 every 6s on yourself as a paladin tank. Assume it is another tank blockign mechanism.

Though this is 12% mana atm on Beta.

It does scale with spell dmg on beta, I believe, but I do not have an account on Beta. I'm going by comments on the web page.

Assume .75 spell dmg coefficient. Then maybe add 0.35 AP coefficient....for another test.
Look at the comments in the page on wotlk.wowhead.com http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53601
from players on Beta, especially the comment from serpentea at the top of the comment page.
Remember a paladin gets +spell dmg from Stam talent and AP from strength.


Sacred shield will probably be cast on you by the Holy paladin, regardless of what tanking class you are.


Yes I know that, but I heard that it may stack....
If it stacks, we might be in good shape.

If not, no then, cause healing pally will heal with it on all tanks and yours won't add another one...

THoughts?
Experiences on Beta with stacking from multiple paladins including yourself?

Can you add the analysis to see for that case of stacking?
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Postby Dehn » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:32 pm

It would be interesting to see the impact of the druid armor nerf and the +3% mitigation from shield of templar for paladins.
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Postby Mica » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:44 pm

Yeah, eta on graph with extra 3% mitigation for paladins, 370% armor scaling for druids, and don't bother with sacred shield as your almost guaranteed to have another paladin doing it on the tank in a 25 man.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:21 am

Embher wrote:
snowwight wrote:
Embher wrote:Can you please add spamming Sacred Shield http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53601 every 6s on yourself as a paladin tank. Assume it is another tank blockign mechanism.

Though this is 12% mana atm on Beta.

It does scale with spell dmg on beta, I believe, but I do not have an account on Beta. I'm going by comments on the web page.

Assume .75 spell dmg coefficient. Then maybe add 0.35 AP coefficient....for another test.
Look at the comments in the page on wotlk.wowhead.com http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53601
from players on Beta, especially the comment from serpentea at the top of the comment page.
Remember a paladin gets +spell dmg from Stam talent and AP from strength.


Sacred shield will probably be cast on you by the Holy paladin, regardless of what tanking class you are.


Yes I know that, but I heard that it may stack....
If it stacks, we might be in good shape.

If not, no then, cause healing pally will heal with it on all tanks and yours won't add another one...

THoughts?
Experiences on Beta with stacking from multiple paladins including yourself?

Can you add the analysis to see for that case of stacking?


You can have the buff on you twice, but it's unclear if you can get more than 1 proc in six seconds. It's probably not intended though.
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Postby Zironic » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:27 am

I'm currently importing your data into matlab to build a simulator but I'm confused by a few things.

Take for example agility.

You have it as 26+207+C43 where C43 is empty. Where do these numbers come from and why havn't you applied scaling to any of them?

Also I need to figure out where in the mountain of numbers you implemented shield block because it has to be removed for a simulation to work :P
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Postby Ubung » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:35 am

It would be interesting to see the impact of the druid armor nerf and the +3% mitigation from shield of templar for paladins.


Id like to second this. Ziggyunderslashone this spreadsheet has been really helpful so far and with the new changes should put us pretty much on par with warriors with regards to mitigation. Like you said earlier when you tested 8 and 10 percent and found 9 percent to be the balance spot.

Thanks again!

8)
nerf scissors, buff paper, rock is fine!

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:40 am

Zironic wrote:I'm currently importing your data into matlab to build a simulator but I'm confused by a few things.

Take for example agility.

You have it as 26+207+C43 where C43 is empty. Where do these numbers come from and why havn't you applied scaling to any of them?

Also I need to figure out where in the mountain of numbers you implemented shield block because it has to be removed for a simulation to work :P

The cell reference is for base stats, which I removed for 4 class analysis. I have all four classes now (though the druid is tauren which may be an issue) and I'll try to get a completed version out today. Afraid I didn't get the time I'd have liked yesterday.

To remove shield block, delete the greyed column next to the warrior damage breakdown, and change cell c24 to =(C23+C22+C21)

Can someone give me a link to the Shield of the Templar change? If thats additive, we're slighly higher than warriors, multiplicative, sizably higher.

As for sacred shield, thats not exclusive to paladins, in much the same way I've included BoSanc across the board, it could applied by anyone.

Also, I'm keeping the short cooldowns as maximum usage. I agree with Lore that best (and most interesting) use in a real life situation would be to use it to level out spikes in input, however as there are no spikes in the model, and personally I feel it would be massively hard to gauge such spikes under large input, pumping them on the CD is best use for our purpose.
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Postby Dehn » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:59 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:Can someone give me a link to the Shield of the Templar change? If thats additive, we're slighly higher than warriors, multiplicative, sizably higher.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... eNo=11#210
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Postby Rhî » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:00 am

It's not implemented yet, but it's generally multiplicative. Although you could just calculate both: additive and multiplicative.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:16 am

Shame in my opinion. The only real difference between us and warriors are holy shield versus shield block and critical block. As I said, I feel something was needed, but I'd have much prefered a unique mechanic to a simple multiplier.

Working furiously, want to see all this too.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:45 am

Gogo premade toons. I've now included base stats for all classes, all functional changes posted. Also, I hate openoffice. Let me know if the savefile isn't functional in excel etc.

Complete Spread Sheet:

http://www.savefile.com/files/1820933

Again, feel free to check for accuracy, you guys have been massively helpful. Also the gear sets could use a critical view, I used the sheet to choose "best" in each slot, but could use a human eye more familiar with non-paladins.

Graphs

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Bears:

Still hugely strong out of the box, but when it comes to scaling, 1 avoidance stat versus 3-4 (low defence remember) is just punishing with diminishing returns. That sharp change in the curve is the armour cap.

Paladins:

Still marginally behind warriors. More like 1% in raw. I still feel we crave something unique and scaling involving block.

Death Knights:

Erm. 60% armour on frost presence is too much. Needs to be a downside to all that avoidance no?
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:01 am

The scaling isn't super relevant because the stats on our gear won't be consistent. If they continue to give us block rating past what will get us to 102.4%, there will be problems, and they've given us enough for 102.4% in Naxx.
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