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Mitigation Comparisons – 4 tanks

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Postby snowwight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:59 am

Lore wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Shield Block, unless theres something encounter specific (illidan enrage style), people will hit it as much as possible, keeping it running 25% of the time.


After a long discussion with Ciderhelm yesterday I'm no longer of the belief that this is the case. Unblocked hits are the new crushing blows. Good Warriors presented with a situation where they need to be able to survive are going to save Shield Block to recover from a string of unblocked hits. Paladins are not as susceptible (if at all, with a little gear) to those strings of unblocked hits.

In short, Shield Block will be used to save a Warrior from a situation that Paladins are immune to. If it's spammed instead, the Warrior will take hefty damage spikes while it's on cooldown.


Hefty damage spikes? From what?
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:03 am

snowwight wrote:
Lore wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Shield Block, unless theres something encounter specific (illidan enrage style), people will hit it as much as possible, keeping it running 25% of the time.


After a long discussion with Ciderhelm yesterday I'm no longer of the belief that this is the case. Unblocked hits are the new crushing blows. Good Warriors presented with a situation where they need to be able to survive are going to save Shield Block to recover from a string of unblocked hits. Paladins are not as susceptible (if at all, with a little gear) to those strings of unblocked hits.

In short, Shield Block will be used to save a Warrior from a situation that Paladins are immune to. If it's spammed instead, the Warrior will take hefty damage spikes while it's on cooldown.


Hefty damage spikes? From what?



Well, assuming block value of 1400, taking an unblocked hit of 4k over 2600 is like taking 50% more damage on that hit in comparison with blocked hits.
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Postby Holyfuri » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:10 am

how much is the mitigation differences changed if we assume what Lore says is true?

If warriors are only using shield block rarely and not every cooldown, which I have read lately on the forums seems to be true, then maybe we are a bit closer than we think? In addition GC just added a post to the main post on the beta forums:

I am aware of the sites you mention and the various threads across the Internet. I am in communication with great tanks all the time. One of the problems we face is that each tank tends to conclude they are the worst -- they're nervous the community will fixate on one as the best, which is totally understandable. The numbers in WoW are very complicated -- if they were simple, much of the depth and theorycrafting wouldn't exist. Unfortunately, that also means it's easy to look at data and come to different conclusions, or even generate different data. Procs, reactionary abilities and cooldowns can change things dramatically. You can't assume they're always up but you can't ignore them either.

I think the BoSanc argument does hold some water, and that's something we're going to look at. I'm specifically refering to the case where the paladin is the eternal OT because he can also buff the warrior MT.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
I don't understand. Are you saying that warriors and paladins are so close that you cannot determine a difference in mitigation/effective health? Or are you saying that you know warriors are 2% better but are choosing not to fix it? If it's the latter, then it makes no sense to me.
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I'm saying the former. We aren't designing the paladin to be purposely inferior. But because their abilities are so different, I'm also not naive enough to say that their survivability will be the same in all situations. Promising 100% the same stats with the same gear for every fight would be silly. I'm promising it will be close enough that you can use any of the 4 classes as your MT (assuming they're a good player).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
As long as it's clear that the number exists and the Paladin is inferior, it's a problem.
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I totally agree with this. But things are rarely "clear" in this game. Is it clear what class did the best dps in BC? Was it clear what class was the best healer? If you change small assumptions in your calculations (maybe a proc isn't up as much as you think) then you get different numbers. On the other hand, I think the numbers *were* pretty clear that warriors were better tanks than paladins in most of end-game BC, but despite that, there were still a lot of paladin tanks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
GC thats the problem. Since it took till now to make us viable we need the edge to compete for MT. All these guilds on all the realms already have a MT chosen. I happen to be lucky enough to be my guilds MT already. For others it wont be so easy. They will remain OT to there guilds already branded MT. Our class just doesn't stand on level ground to claim it.
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I agree the WoW community can be surprisingly conservative in adapting to new paradigms. But that's not a great reason to give anyone the edge. It didn't take very long at all for players to realize that Protadins were head and shoulders above other tanks for running 5-mans, especially say Shattered Halls. Shadow Priests went from lol to mandatory in between Naxx and Karazhan. Some guilds will keep a warrior as their MT because they like that player in that role. But not all will. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a lot of changes in guild structure (it happened in BC) because the raiding landscape is so different now. You can choose to skip 25-player content completely and still go against the Lich King. A lot of players assume that the perception will be the 25s where the big boys play and the 10s are the kiddie pool, but I'm not so sure that's going to happen.

I bolded the part I think is important... maybe we should look at what the graph would look like if sanctuary was a self-buff only?
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Postby snowwight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:14 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
snowwight wrote:
Lore wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Shield Block, unless theres something encounter specific (illidan enrage style), people will hit it as much as possible, keeping it running 25% of the time.


After a long discussion with Ciderhelm yesterday I'm no longer of the belief that this is the case. Unblocked hits are the new crushing blows. Good Warriors presented with a situation where they need to be able to survive are going to save Shield Block to recover from a string of unblocked hits. Paladins are not as susceptible (if at all, with a little gear) to those strings of unblocked hits.

In short, Shield Block will be used to save a Warrior from a situation that Paladins are immune to. If it's spammed instead, the Warrior will take hefty damage spikes while it's on cooldown.


Hefty damage spikes? From what?



Well, assuming block value of 1400, taking an unblocked hit of 4k over 2600 is like taking 50% more damage on that hit in comparison with blocked hits.


No one is going to die from 4k hits, unless they are so fast they are eating through Holy Shield anyway.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:17 am

snowwight wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:
snowwight wrote:
Lore wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Shield Block, unless theres something encounter specific (illidan enrage style), people will hit it as much as possible, keeping it running 25% of the time.


After a long discussion with Ciderhelm yesterday I'm no longer of the belief that this is the case. Unblocked hits are the new crushing blows. Good Warriors presented with a situation where they need to be able to survive are going to save Shield Block to recover from a string of unblocked hits. Paladins are not as susceptible (if at all, with a little gear) to those strings of unblocked hits.

In short, Shield Block will be used to save a Warrior from a situation that Paladins are immune to. If it's spammed instead, the Warrior will take hefty damage spikes while it's on cooldown.


Hefty damage spikes? From what?



Well, assuming block value of 1400, taking an unblocked hit of 4k over 2600 is like taking 50% more damage on that hit in comparison with blocked hits.


No one is going to die from 4k hits, unless they are so fast they are eating through Holy Shield anyway.
XD I know, but there's the spike !
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Postby dmok » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:20 am

I think that GC post needs to stop being posted here. Pretty sure I've seen the entire thing 4 times now ...
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Postby Holyfuri » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

dmok wrote:I think that GC post needs to stop being posted here. Pretty sure I've seen the entire thing 4 times now ...


First time in this thread... where it, imo belongs as it pertains directly to the discussion.

I only saw it in one other thread anyway, also in the middle of an existing thread. It's not like there's 3 or 4 new posts about it or anything. =P
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Postby snowwight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:40 am

Snake-Aes wrote:[XD I know, but there's the spike !
Just as an expansion on what I am getting at, let's say the following situation happens. There's a hard hitting boss, he's hitting for 11k after armor. Warrior has 36k hp. 11k damage and not using shield block, with 1500 block value, means worst case he's taking 10k damage(def. stance) and best case he's taking 7k(about 6% of the time).

Paladin in this same situation: Well, that 11k hit becomes 10,340 against our paladin hero, thanks to RF. Since he's blocking every attack, he's only taking 8,840 damage, worst case or best case. Let's look at this in percentages for a second. In the same gear, he'll probably be about 2k hp short of the warrior, just for the purposes of the thought experiment, the ranged slot cancels out the stam scaling.

8,840 damage of 34k hp = 26% of his hp per hit, worst AND best case.
9,000 damage of 36k hp = 25% of his hp per hit, worst case only.

Hmm, doesn't really look the paladin is going to seem less spiky to the healers.
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Postby Lore » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:42 am

Even blocking 1400 of, say, an 8k hit is sizeable, almost a 20% damage reduction.

Remember we're talking about a maximum 7% mitigation difference here. You'd have to be taking a 20k hit before 1400 block value becomes less effective than 7% mitigation without a block.
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Postby snowwight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:52 am

Lore wrote:Even blocking 1400 of, say, an 8k hit is sizeable, almost a 20% damage reduction.

Remember we're talking about a maximum 7% mitigation difference here. You'd have to be taking a 20k hit before 1400 block value becomes less effective than 7% mitigation without a block.


I'm not saying that it's not a sizeable reduction, but we're not talking about damage reduction, we're talking about spikiness. I think the problem here is that people are associating avoidance with blocking. There's definitely an advantage to having a reliable incoming damage amount rather than being based around dodging and then suddenly taking a dip. In other words, even if the mitigation is the same, spreading it out is easier to heal when it comes to taking 0k hits vs. 8k ones, in your example. But you can't just transfer that concept to blocking without thinking about it.

To the healer, on an 8k hit with 1400 block value, with 60% avoidance and 20% block value. For a warrior, the outcomes of unavoided hits are:
50% chance of 7200.
35% chance of 5800
15% chance of 4400.

For a paladin, the outcome is always 6,120. Sorry, I just don't think that equates to being "less spiky."

EDIT: In fact, that's probably within the random amounts of a lot of heals.
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Postby snowwight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:56 am

Finally, in a static fight with no damage increases, the warrior would be foolish not to hit shield block every cooldown. At the very least, it becomes an excellent time for the paladins healing him to use DP.
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Postby Fizzgig » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:13 pm

Its spikier because he takes different amounts of damage. We take the same. How is that not the definition of spikey? I can't count how many times I've gone into a lucky streak and dodged 5-6 attacks in a row then all of a sudden I take a bunch of hits and the healers have already switched to reactive healing instead of knowing the damage will be there.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:20 pm

Fizzgig wrote:Its spikier because he takes different amounts of damage. We take the same. How is that not the definition of spikey? I can't count how many times I've gone into a lucky streak and dodged 5-6 attacks in a row then all of a sudden I take a bunch of hits and the healers have already switched to reactive healing instead of knowing the damage will be there.
Well, if a hit is anything from 15 to 26% of your hp, it will spike to 25
if a hit is always 25, it's predictably there. Nothing bad for us but the feel from a %hp lost is "it's like your second-worst spike, but all the time"
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Postby snowwight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:38 pm

Fizzgig wrote:Its spikier because he takes different amounts of damage. We take the same. How is that not the definition of spikey? I can't count how many times I've gone into a lucky streak and dodged 5-6 attacks in a row then all of a sudden I take a bunch of hits and the healers have already switched to reactive healing instead of knowing the damage will be there.


It's different by no more or less than the block value. How is that remotely the same as dodging, unless the hits are so small I don't know why you'd be worried about dying anyway?
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:56 pm

snowwight wrote:
Fizzgig wrote:Its spikier because he takes different amounts of damage. We take the same. How is that not the definition of spikey? I can't count how many times I've gone into a lucky streak and dodged 5-6 attacks in a row then all of a sudden I take a bunch of hits and the healers have already switched to reactive healing instead of knowing the damage will be there.


It's different by no more or less than the block value. How is that remotely the same as dodging, unless the hits are so small I don't know why you'd be worried about dying anyway?


Well, hate to both agree and disagree with you Snow, but it is spikier.

For discussion, lets say the warrior has 1K BV before talents.

Means he will have the following possible hits from a mob witha raw hit of 10K when he has 60% Armor mitigation

Miss/Dodge/Parry: 0
Hit: 3600
Normal Block: 2300 (1K*1.3 Block)
Crit Block: 1000 (1K*2.6 Block)
Shield Block: 1300 (1K*2.3 Block)
Crit Shield Block: 0 (1K*4.6)

A Paladin at 102.4 with HS up would take:
Miss/Dodge/Parry: 0
HS Block: 2460 (1K*1.3)

A Paladin lower than 102.4 with HS up would take:
Miss/Dodge/Parry: 0
Hit: 3760
HS Block: 2460 (1K*1.3)

So, assuming avoidance is the same, the damage is spiker on the warrior...

However, the amplitude of the spike makes it irrelevant in single target situations.

If a mob is hitting hard enough to cause a dent in a 30K+ health pool, the variance is just not large enough to matter.

As long as normal block value is in the 1/25 range of a health pool, it really comes down to being irrelevant as far as difficulty to heal.
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