Mitigation Comparisons – 4 tanks

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Postby Sharlos » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:19 am

If we aren't including Ardent Defender, then why are we including Shield Block? From what I can tell, warriors apparently wont/aren't intended to be spamming this ability whenever it's off cooldown. That would effect the numbers there.

edit: also, these graphs are 'seconds-till-death' comparisons. Do we have similar comparisons for just effective health?
Last edited by Sharlos on Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lore » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:20 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:Shield Block, unless theres something encounter specific (illidan enrage style), people will hit it as much as possible, keeping it running 25% of the time.


After a long discussion with Ciderhelm yesterday I'm no longer of the belief that this is the case. Unblocked hits are the new crushing blows. Good Warriors presented with a situation where they need to be able to survive are going to save Shield Block to recover from a string of unblocked hits. Paladins are not as susceptible (if at all, with a little gear) to those strings of unblocked hits.

In short, Shield Block will be used to save a Warrior from a situation that Paladins are immune to. If it's spammed instead, the Warrior will take hefty damage spikes while it's on cooldown.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:21 am

Lore wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Shield Block, unless theres something encounter specific (illidan enrage style), people will hit it as much as possible, keeping it running 25% of the time.


After a long discussion with Ciderhelm yesterday I'm no longer of the belief that this is the case. Unblocked hits are the new crushing blows. Good Warriors presented with a situation where they need to be able to survive are going to save Shield Block to recover from a string of unblocked hits. Paladins are not as susceptible (if at all, with a little gear) to those strings of unblocked hits.

In short, Shield Block will be used to save a Warrior from a situation that Paladins are immune to. If it's spammed instead, the Warrior will take hefty damage spikes while it's on cooldown.
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Postby Lore » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:45 am

It was in vent. We were supposed to be doing a podcast but instead we decided to argue about Paladins.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:46 am

Sharlos wrote:edit: also, these graphs are 'seconds-till-death' comparisons. Do we have similar comparisons for just effective health?

It would be identical, with different numbers up the side. It's more like "Average time taken to do full health pool of damage", the time portion is there as that's what I've been working with since the weapon skill -> exp change.

Lore wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:Shield Block, unless theres something encounter specific (illidan enrage style), people will hit it as much as possible, keeping it running 25% of the time.


After a long discussion with Ciderhelm yesterday I'm no longer of the belief that this is the case. Unblocked hits are the new crushing blows. Good Warriors presented with a situation where they need to be able to survive are going to save Shield Block to recover from a string of unblocked hits. Paladins are not as susceptible (if at all, with a little gear) to those strings of unblocked hits.

In short, Shield Block will be used to save a Warrior from a situation that Paladins are immune to. If it's spammed instead, the Warrior will take hefty damage spikes while it's on cooldown.

I can definitely see that, but I can imagine it being very difficult to use effectively. For a start we're talking initially, of blocking maybe 15-25% of hits. Strings could be hard to identify, especially if somethings hitting hard enough to kill you in 4 swings, as it is here.

I'm probably playing for time here as that's not feasible to model. Given it represents an average over a period, I think maximum effectiveness is what we should represent. In actual survival, using it as you suggest could well be more valuable, but would show as more damage taken overall.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:48 am

Couldn't you relate, in a simulator, sblock usage from a string of hits? say, 2 unblocked hits->shield block. How would the average uptime be on that situation, given a hard hitter single target?
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Postby majiben » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:54 am

Really the only concern I have between the warrior class and the paladin class is the base health difference. Our physical EH scales about 1% faster than warriors which can be offset with their gun slot. Better scaling provides me no comfort if warriors keep a 5% advantage that at best shrinks 3% lead. If we could have our base health brought closer then I could go into this expansion with a smile on my face.
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Postby Holyfuri » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:01 am

Majiben wrote:Really the only concern I have between the warrior class and the paladin class is the base health difference. Our physical EH scales about 1% faster than warriors which can be offset with their gun slot. Better scaling provides me no comfort if warriors keep a 5% advantage that at best shrinks 3% lead. If we could have our base health brought closer then I could go into this expansion with a smile on my face.


This is a good point. As has been brought up alot, we need something to call our niche. I would imagine it would work best like this...

Druid: Highest health pool, lowest mitigation. Capable of soaking the burst damage.
Death Knight: Lower health pool, higher mitigation with multiple active abilities and cooldowns.
Warriors and Paladins: The middle of the road tanks, in all aspects. Warriors have slightly higher health pools but paladins have slightly higher mitigation...or vice versa.

As it stands this is the case except for us and warriors. They have higher mitigation AND stamina at this point.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:03 am

Snake-Aes wrote:Couldn't you relate, in a simulator, sblock usage from a string of hits? say, 2 unblocked hits->shield block. How would the average uptime be on that situation, given a hard hitter single target?

At 25% chance to take a normal hit and a 2.0 attack speed, you can expect to take a 2 string on average every 32 seconds. So you could say it's likely to be used every 64.

But it feels a bit wobbly (statistical term, honest.)
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Postby Zironic » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:33 am

I finally got around to installing matlab again so now I can get around to program a time until death simulator.

I was planning to pull the data from your spreadsheet however the one you link in the first post is the one without base health and without proper block mechanics etc, did you link the second spreadsheet anywhere else in the thread?

I'd like to attempt to model things like how significant is AD on average? how spiky is warrior survivability vs paladin? And should shield block be spammed or saved?
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:07 am

Zironic wrote:I was planning to pull the data from your spreadsheet however the one you link in the first post is the one without base health and without proper block mechanics etc, did you link the second spreadsheet anywhere else in the thread?

The one in the OP has 10/40 shieldblock (I think I need to leave it there, personally), but not base stats.

Numbers I have:

pally 151str 90agi 143sta 6934hp
warr 176str 109agi 162sta 7624hp
dk 178str 109agi 162sta 7971hp
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:20 am

I found a small error in your spreadsheet. You're overvaluing the Warrior's block value by a little.

In J9, you have
J9 wrote:=(J3+B9/2)*1.3*1.1


This is (block value + strength/2) * Shield Specialization * Glyph of Blocking

This isn't how it works. Modifiers are added and then multiplied, so it would actually be:

Fixed J9 wrote:=(J3+B9/2)*1.4


Critical block actually doubles things on the end, but Shield Block doesn't. A shield block block would be:

=(J3+B9/2)*2.4

Because you add in the 1.0 from modifiers before multiplying by the original block value.
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Postby Eanin » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:47 am

This analysis should really include AD. For anything that doesn't two-shot us, it increases our EH. Yes, it's open to chance, but so is dodge. Without AD in the model, it's not very accurate.

I did some fiddling in an old thread, and AD gives an average 8% EH bonus when we're not two-shot.
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Postby Widdox » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:58 am

************
Is there anyway to look at the difference in variability of health between a warrior and a paladin while being hit.

For example: The paladin's average health during the fight vs the warrior? Or number of times a warrior drops below a certain percent of health. I'm trying to figure out if we take more consistent damage.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:04 am

Holyfuri wrote:
Majiben wrote:Really the only concern I have between the warrior class and the paladin class is the base health difference. Our physical EH scales about 1% faster than warriors which can be offset with their gun slot. Better scaling provides me no comfort if warriors keep a 5% advantage that at best shrinks 3% lead. If we could have our base health brought closer then I could go into this expansion with a smile on my face.


This is a good point. As has been brought up alot, we need something to call our niche. I would imagine it would work best like this...

Druid: Highest health pool, lowest mitigation. Capable of soaking the burst damage.
Death Knight: Lower health pool, higher mitigation with multiple active abilities and cooldowns.
Warriors and Paladins: The middle of the road tanks, in all aspects. Warriors have slightly higher health pools but paladins have slightly higher mitigation...or vice versa.

As it stands this is the case except for us and warriors. They have higher mitigation AND stamina at this point.


A note on druids. not sure what gear your using on them, but I was easily able to equip a druid to over 40,000AC...think your armor value in spreadsheet is low.

I noted that you had your druid pretty much loaded with stamina in the models, and that does not necessarily give you the best EH calculation on the druid model.

Not sure what trinkets you were using for them but there are a couple of AC trinkets possible and some high AC cloaks and rings.
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