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Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:32 am

Io.Draco wrote:
and for the record, here's the blue post saying they want Shield Block to be like a mini Shield Wall.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#15


Well thats interesting , but it won't do warriors much good , shure they can take less damage overall BUT their dmg income will be spiked ALOT , and thats the thing healers hate the most , healing a tank who takes a lot of spiky damage


Without crushing blows, they'll probably take fewer spikes than they do now if you'd compare them to the same level of avoidance.
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Postby Norrath » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:55 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Norrath wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Well, but keep in mind that a warrior will benefit more from the block rating. For a Paladin, it's only 1% block (which, with Holy Shield, is more likely to already be there anyway). With a Warrior, it's 1% block 30 out of every 40 seconds, and it has a 30% chance of being worth double.

Kinda makes it ironic that it's our gear that has block rating. We'll see next time we get our shot, though.


That's assuming you keep Shield Block on constant cooldown, which is exactly what Blizzard wanted to steer away from.


Not necessarily. They said they wanted it to be like a mini Shield Wall. They didn't say they didn't want it used as soon as it's off cooldown.


They said they wanted to implement choice in its use. Using it as soon as possible doesn't imply choice.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:03 am

Norrath wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Norrath wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Well, but keep in mind that a warrior will benefit more from the block rating. For a Paladin, it's only 1% block (which, with Holy Shield, is more likely to already be there anyway). With a Warrior, it's 1% block 30 out of every 40 seconds, and it has a 30% chance of being worth double.

Kinda makes it ironic that it's our gear that has block rating. We'll see next time we get our shot, though.


That's assuming you keep Shield Block on constant cooldown, which is exactly what Blizzard wanted to steer away from.


Not necessarily. They said they wanted it to be like a mini Shield Wall. They didn't say they didn't want it used as soon as it's off cooldown.


They said they wanted to implement choice in its use. Using it as soon as possible doesn't imply choice.


I would guess that that will be determined by the boss. If there's some predictible burst that is dangerous, then you'd save it, otherwise you'd probably use it on cooldown.
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Postby ertss » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:00 am

I still don't catch the difference between a "effective block" and a normal block.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:45 am

ertss wrote:I still don't catch the difference between a "effective block" and a normal block.


For Paladins, it's any block, because we have no modifiers. A block with Holy Shield is the same as a block with Redoubt, is the same as a block with neither.

A Warrior's Shield Block increases block value by 100%, so a block during Shield Block for a Warrior is effectively worth two blocks, even though he's only actually blocking once. So, he gets two effective blocks for blocks during Shield Block. He can also "critically block," which is a double block. It also counts for two, but he's actually only really blocking once.

Of course, I now know that "100% increased block value" and "block for double" aren't the same thing, so take the numbers with a grain of salt until I update the simulator to reflect it.
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Postby Lore » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:50 am

See the announcement here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... hp?t=13272

This thread is something of a special case since it seems to primarily be discussing a flavor difference (which IS what they're working on at the moment - making the classes fun to play), so I'll leave it open. I do ask that everyone keep in mind the current design goals, however, and not worry so much about class balance until after our next pass.
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Postby ertss » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:16 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
ertss wrote:I still don't catch the difference between a "effective block" and a normal block.


For Paladins, it's any block, because we have no modifiers. A block with Holy Shield is the same as a block with Redoubt, is the same as a block with neither.

A Warrior's Shield Block increases block value by 100%, so a block during Shield Block for a Warrior is effectively worth two blocks, even though he's only actually blocking once. So, he gets two effective blocks for blocks during Shield Block. He can also "critically block," which is a double block. It also counts for two, but he's actually only really blocking once.

Of course, I now know that "100% increased block value" and "block for double" aren't the same thing, so take the numbers with a grain of salt until I update the simulator to reflect it.


Well,thank you for this.
Hope they could solve the issue after our next pass.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:32 pm

Attention:
This has been updated to use a different summary system than it originally did. It now summarizes as (Total Effective Blocks / Total Unavoided Hits) * Your Block Value, rather than dividing by all swings.


Alright, so the simulator can be much more accurate, I changed how things are calculated. An "Effective Block" is now your block value (including from Strength) before any talents or buffs. Period.

The simulator now accepts your points in Shield Specialization/Mastery (up to 30% block value), the Glyph of Blocking (10% block value), the TBC block value meta (10% block value) and the WotLK block value meta (5% block value). In order to be accurate, it requires all this information because the modifiers don't multiply directly onto each other. Based on these modifiers, it generates an effective block. For Paladins, this is generally going to be 1.3. That's 1.3 x Your Block Value, and is what you virtually always block for. For Warriors, it tracks the modifiers and adds them up correctly, as well as doubles them correctly for the correct amount of mitigated damage.

So, let's confirm that will work. In-game, on my warrior, I confirmed that the following blocks mitigated the corresponding amounts of damage:
    Standard Block: 581
    Critical Standard Block: 1162 (Double)
    Shield Block Standard Block: 1028 (100% increased block value)
    Shield Block Critical Block: 2056 (100% increased block value + double)
I have 3/3 Shield Mastery, so 581/(1.3) is 447. This is my block value before talents and buffs. The simulator says:
    Standard Block: x1.3
    Critical Standard Block: x2.6
    Shield Block Standard Block: x2.3
    Shield Block Critical Block: x4.6
If you go through those and do those multiplications with my block value before talents (447), it comes out to the values that the game gave me. The Effective Block x Your Block Value = How much you block for. So, it appears the simulator is accurate. However, I also changed how it displays the totals. It will now display it as (Effective Blocks / Total Damaging Swings) x Your Block Value. What this does is average how much you block per swing, so that there can be an equal comparison between tanks.

So, now I'll do the exact same trials as before, so we can know who blocks more in Build 9085.

Trial 1: Minimum Avoidance, One Target
For this one, I'm using the minimal likely avoidance. The only avoidance and block %s come from talents and crit immunity through defense. The tanks are unbuffed. I also assume a single target with a 2.0 attack speed, slowed to 2.4 by Thunder Clap / JotJ, that is three levels above the tank.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Averaged over 10,000 swings:
The Warrior mitigates 1.106 x Block Value each unavoided swing.
The Paladin mitigates 0.95 x Block Value each unavoided swing.

Trial 2: 50% Avoidance, One Target
For this, I upped their dodge and parry chances by 5% each, for a total of 50% pure avoidance.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Averaged over 10,000 swings:
The Warrior mitigates 1.18 x Block Value each unavoided swing.
The Paladin mitigates 1.1 x Block Value each unavoided swing.

Trial 3: 60% Avoidance, One Target
For this, I upped their dodge and parry chances by another 5% each, for a total of 60% pure avoidance.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Averaged over 10,000 swings:
The Warrior mitigates 1.3 x Block Value each unavoided swing.
The Paladin mitigates 1.3 x Block Value each unavoided swing.


This is very interesting. I had to run the numbers twice just to be sure I wasn't running the wrong class.

Trial 4: 70% Avoidance, One Target
For this, I upped their dodge and parry chances by yet another 5% each, for a total of 70% pure avoidance.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Averaged over 10,000 swings:
The Warrior mitigates 1.48 x Block Value each unavoided swing.
The Paladin mitigates 1.3 x Block Value each swing.

This makes sense. Once it becomes easier and easier to block without Holy Shield, the superior scaling of the blocks that are left favors of the warrior.

Trial 5: 60% Avoidance, One Target, Dual Wielder
Same as Trial 3, except the attacker has an attack speed of 1.2, twice as fast as before.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Averaged over 10,000 swings:
The Warrior mitigates 1.3 x Block Value each unavoided swing.
The Paladin mitigates 1.3 x Block Value each unavoided swing.


About the same as Trial 3, due to Shield Block having no charges and Holy Shield not being eaten up.

Conclusion (TL;DR)
It appears that the Warrior blocks more at lower levels of avoidance (where his 5% from talents and 100% to block Shield Block excel). The Paladin catches up and overtakes the Warrior at around 50% (likely, fully-buffed in starting tiers), they tie at 60%, and the Warrior overtakes the Paladin at 70%, when the frequency of blocking overall is lower, so the scaling of the Warrior's blocks wins.

Oddly enough, it actually appears to be kind of balanced. The Warrior excels in less likely conditions, but by a wider margin, and the Paladin excels by a smaller margin, but in the more likely conditions. Thoughts?
Last edited by moduspwnens on Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:40 pm

I wouldn't call it balanced just yet. Makign our gear designed for blocks, then making other class block more than we do on all but a very specific avoidance bracket makes little sense.
The warrior blocking mechanic is superior to the paladin's simply because it's oversighted. double bv to compensate for 50% sblock uptime doesn't take in consideration warriors still have baseline block chance. We get our holy shield 100% uptime but no extra block, so that block% we have without it is "wasted".

Dunno how "likely" those conditions are either :/ The whole gear design thing I said. We'll still use lots of different gear(tiers). I'm gonna wait for the next pass.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:41 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:I wouldn't call it balanced just yet. Makign our gear designed for blocks, then making other class block more than we do on all but a very specific avoidance bracket makes little sense.
The warrior blocking mechanic is superior to the paladin's simply because it's oversighted. double bv to compensate for 50% sblock uptime doesn't take in consideration warriors still have baseline block chance. We get our holy shield 100% uptime but no extra block, so that block% we have without it is "wasted".

Dunno how "likely" those conditions are either :/ The whole gear design thing I said. We'll still use lots of different gear(tiers). I'm gonna wait for the next pass.


Well, for purposes of this thread, they're wearing the same gear.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:43 pm

:p true
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Postby Noradin » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:48 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Thoughts?


This mechanic strongly favors warriors as soon as there are more than 6 (10) unavoided hits per 8sec, since they don't depend on charges.
I'd expect them to take significant less damage from aoe groups.
They should be able to tank the first 10sec of most aoe groups whitout taking damage at all while gainig an ok amount of rage from blocking (dogding and parying with sanc) and dealing some thread with damage shield etc..
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Postby Arcand » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:49 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Arcand wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


I'll bet it drives you crazy that people watch hockey games, instead of just reading the score the next morning.


you just compared the development process of a MMORPG to a hockey game.


We pay to be there.
We watch from the sidelines.
Some of us are pretty chilled about the outcome.
Some of us are rabidly invested in the outcome.
Some of us try to influence the outcome by screaming really loud, even though it doesn't seem to make much difference.
There's some entertainment value in noting historic tendencies we see in the participants and their implications for the outcome.
Whenever a significant event occurs, there's a mental and verbal flurry as everyone assesses its impact and implications.

So yeah, I thought it was an adequate metaphor. :)
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:53 pm

Noradin wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Thoughts?


This mechanic strongly favors warriors as soon as there are more than 6 (10) unavoided hits per 8sec, since they don't depend on charges.
I'd expect them to take significant less damage from aoe groups.
They should be able to tank the first 10sec of most aoe groups whitout taking damage at all while gainig an ok amount of rage from blocking (dogding and parying with sanc) and dealing some thread with damage shield etc..


Yes, I noticed that, as well. Once you get to a certain point, 5% passive block outweighs 8 charges of 30% block every 8 seconds, Redoubt plateaus, and Shield Block has no charges. In fact, using it in an AoE situations really is like a super mini Shield Wall. I just assumed that there won't really be much challenging AoE content, and if there is, you'd probably want the Paladin's threat, anyway. I guess we'll see.
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Postby Widdox » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:05 pm

Arcand wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Arcand wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


I'll bet it drives you crazy that people watch hockey games, instead of just reading the score the next morning.


you just compared the development process of a MMORPG to a hockey game.


We pay to be there.
We watch from the sidelines.
Some of us are pretty chilled about the outcome.
Some of us are rabidly invested in the outcome.
Some of us try to influence the outcome by screaming really loud, even though it doesn't seem to make much difference.
There's some entertainment value in noting historic tendencies we see in the participants and their implications for the outcome.
Whenever a significant event occurs, there's a mental and verbal flurry as everyone assesses its impact and implications.

So yeah, I thought it was an adequate metaphor. :)


Love it!
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