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Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

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Postby rozakk » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:53 pm

if anything now would be the time to clearly demonstrate potential concerns, as they are about to go through our class. if afterwards there is still a problem we might no longer be in the 'blizzard listening' window and nothing may get done
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:57 pm

rozakk wrote:if anything now would be the time to clearly demonstrate potential concerns, as they are about to go through our class. if afterwards there is still a problem we might no longer be in the 'blizzard listening' window and nothing may get done


Perhaps, but Ghostcrawler specifcally said they don't care about numbers yet because they haven't attempted to balance them. So I'd assume any post talking about numbers is likely to be ignored. Waiting til after we've had a another pass to see what if any mechanics changes we get is probably best at this point.
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Postby Moses » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:02 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
rozakk wrote:if anything now would be the time to clearly demonstrate potential concerns, as they are about to go through our class. if afterwards there is still a problem we might no longer be in the 'blizzard listening' window and nothing may get done


Perhaps, but Ghostcrawler specifcally said they don't care about numbers yet because they haven't attempted to balance them. So I'd assume any post talking about numbers is likely to be ignored. Waiting til after we've had a another pass to see what if any mechanics changes we get is probably best at this point.


True, if you've been following DK progress they just entered the "balancing" phase and got hit hard... no more 12k frost strike crits or 10k scourge strikes. Once they settle our tree and the prot warrior tree we'll probably be headed to our own balancing phase where they add charges to shield block etc.

I do like to see these numbers, thanks for running them Modus.
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Postby Dorvan » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:15 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


Random QQ'ing isn't helpful....but detailed analysis certainly is. I think it'd be worthwhile to post these preliminary results to the forums in hopes that the feedback can be integrated into the next pass.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:26 pm

So a question, can a block while shield block is active also be a critical block, for effectively 4X block value?
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:28 pm

Fridmarr wrote:So a question, can a block while shield block is active also be a critical block, for effectively 4X block value?


Yes. Well, it is in the simulator. TBH I haven't seen it actually happen in-game, as I'm not really paying attention. I assume so.
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Postby Seraphia » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:44 pm

I've heard of some warriors talk about 5k dmg blocks, haven't seen it myself yet.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:45 pm

Seraphia wrote:I've heard of some warriors talk about 5k dmg blocks, haven't seen it myself yet.


I don't think I ever got hit for 5k, but I only got through one level 80 instance with my premade character.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:10 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Seraphia wrote:I've heard of some warriors talk about 5k dmg blocks, haven't seen it myself yet.


I don't think I ever got hit for 5k, but I only got through one level 80 instance with my premade character.


Well I guess I can see the reference to the mini shield wall. 2500-5000 blocks for 10 seconds is pretty strong, especially with the flexibility of being able to control it. Makes me kind of stoked for the types of changes we should see.
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Postby Vesstair » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:25 pm

Honestly, I'm taking this with a grain of salt. If I read your post right, you're assuming 0 block rating- I'd like to see numbers run again with a reasonable gearset- I'm looking at MMOChampion, and I see a lot of tank gear from nax (I'll post the links to the screenies).

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... n_tank.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_022.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_054.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_045.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_017.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_002.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_073.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_056.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_039.jpg

And the warrior 10-man set

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... r_tank.jpg

If we take the neck with block rating, that gives us an extra 10.68% chance to block (and 1.53% more than warriors), meaning there will be many fewer attacks which we don't block. Also, our set actually has a block rating gem bonus for a little bit more.

Also, remember that one of the blue posts before this patch said that they thought prot warriors might do more damage than arms... They'll probably get nerfed SOMEWHAT (but we don't know how and how much).

tl;dr: 1. Wait for the second pass through pally talents to happen before declaring the sky is falling.

2. Wait for the warrior changes to be live for a week before declaring the sky is falling.

3. Block rating will help us more than warriors. We won't tank naked. Figure it in.
Last edited by Vesstair on Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:28 pm

Well, but keep in mind that a warrior will benefit more from the block rating. For a Paladin, it's only 1% block (which, with Holy Shield, is more likely to already be there anyway). With a Warrior, it's 1% block 30 out of every 40 seconds, and it has a 30% chance of being worth double.

Kinda makes it ironic that it's our gear that has block rating. We'll see next time we get our shot, though.
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Postby Norrath » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:33 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Well, but keep in mind that a warrior will benefit more from the block rating. For a Paladin, it's only 1% block (which, with Holy Shield, is more likely to already be there anyway). With a Warrior, it's 1% block 30 out of every 40 seconds, and it has a 30% chance of being worth double.

Kinda makes it ironic that it's our gear that has block rating. We'll see next time we get our shot, though.


That's assuming you keep Shield Block on constant cooldown, which is exactly what Blizzard wanted to steer away from.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:34 pm

Norrath wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Well, but keep in mind that a warrior will benefit more from the block rating. For a Paladin, it's only 1% block (which, with Holy Shield, is more likely to already be there anyway). With a Warrior, it's 1% block 30 out of every 40 seconds, and it has a 30% chance of being worth double.

Kinda makes it ironic that it's our gear that has block rating. We'll see next time we get our shot, though.


That's assuming you keep Shield Block on constant cooldown, which is exactly what Blizzard wanted to steer away from.


Not necessarily. They said they wanted it to be like a mini Shield Wall. They didn't say they didn't want it used as soon as it's off cooldown.
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Postby Vesstair » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:41 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Well, but keep in mind that a warrior will benefit more from the block rating. For a Paladin, it's only 1% block (which, with Holy Shield, is more likely to already be there anyway). With a Warrior, it's 1% block 30 out of every 40 seconds, and it has a 30% chance of being worth double.

Kinda makes it ironic that it's our gear that has block rating. We'll see next time we get our shot, though.


I STRONGLY disagree.

1. Bosses don't crush.... meaning uncrushability won't be mandatory for raids, meaning there's a good chance we won't be "uncrushable", at least in the first tier of raids.

2. For a warrior, block rating will only make ANY difference 30 of every 40 seconds; for us, it will be 1% block for 40 of every 40 seconds.

3. The closer we get to filling the attack table, the more each block rating moves us toward taking no normal hits. My gut feeling is that block rating will be more valuable the closer you get to a full combat table, but I don't have numbers to back it up- I would want to see it modeled before making any conclusions.

As a side note- we get 115 more block value on our tier sets. That will also make a difference.

*edit*

moduspwnens wrote:Not necessarily. They said they wanted it to be like a mini Shield Wall. They didn't say they didn't want it used as soon as it's off cooldown.

Source? Not that I don't believe you, it sounds reasonable... just curious.

If that's so, I see shield block getting nerfed pretty substantially somehow; maybe 2 minute cooldown talented to 1:20? That would still be useful several times per fight, but wouldn't be quite so... well, OP. Maybe duration reduced to 5-8 seconds? Maybe 30-50 rage cost, so it's not economical to use EVERY time it's up, just when you need an "oh shit" button?
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:00 pm

Vesstair wrote:Honestly, I'm taking this with a grain of salt. If I read your post right, you're assuming 0 block rating- I'd like to see numbers run again with a reasonable gearset- I'm looking at MMOChampion, and I see a lot of tank gear from nax (I'll post the links to the screenies).

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... n_tank.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_022.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_054.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_045.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_017.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_002.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_073.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_056.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... ot_039.jpg

And the warrior 10-man set

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/ima ... r_tank.jpg

If we take the neck with block rating, that gives us an extra 10.68% chance to block (and 1.53% more than warriors), meaning there will be many fewer attacks which we don't block. Also, our set actually has a block rating gem bonus for a little bit more.

Also, remember that one of the blue posts before this patch said that they thought prot warriors might do more damage than arms... They'll probably get nerfed SOMEWHAT (but we don't know how and how much).

tl;dr: 1. Wait for the second pass through pally talents to happen before declaring the sky is falling.

2. Wait for the warrior changes to be live for a week before declaring the sky is falling.

3. Block rating will help us more than warriors. We won't tank naked. Figure it in.


Warriors also have more avoidance on their gear and more mitigation from defensive stance. This was only comparing blocks.

As for the sky is falling, no one said that, so stop trying to say people did. That got old about 5 minutes after the wotlk forum opened and it's never been accurate.
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