Leveling Weapon Skill in Wrath

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:27 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Amarant_Pally wrote:
uke wrote:Amarant, how much time to you have to waste each week?


As I've said before, I've leveled all my weapon skills (except for Polearms) doing things that I naturally do to prepare my character. IE. doing dailies, grinding buff food, killing that "omigawd creature that attacked me while I was mining a node", or during my leveling. I've never had to dedicate a certain amount of time per day, week, or month to level up skills, which is why I can't measure it.


I thought you said
/autoattack
/watchmovie


Nope, I've never had problems watching a movie while auto-attacking a mob that drops buff food. It requires little attention to the game, but yes, sometimes a mob was dead long before I realized it while my attention was my on TV screen. ;)

The point is, combining 1) weapon skill grinding 2) grinding buff food and 3) other (real life) activities removed some of the "tediousness" (in my case, to the point where it didn't seem like effort).


Well I was referring more to your

And what's so bad about watching a movie while you afk to train Polearms?


Comment which is at odds with other things you have said.

Still I just don't really have time for that type of thing, especially after recently hitting the level cap. If I'm farming, I can't swap to a lower skill weapon so that killing things takes 5 times as long and forces me to eat/drink more often. I need to be fairly efficient in my play time, particularly at that point in progression. A few months in, sure, I can mess around with stuff like that, but again, it's a braindead mechanic.
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Postby MrDuck » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:34 pm

lusisia wrote:
Chunes wrote:I think every paladin who moans about leveling weap skill is either forgetting or is ignorant of one little fact:

http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=7671

judge light on them, wear your tank gear, and go do something else. you'll be skillcapped before you know it. Only catch is to keep yourself from logging due to afk. that's not hard to avoid tho.


Those mobs will no longer give skillups after patch 3.0. That's what started the whole discussion about weapon skill.
Even on live..i judged light, started hitting servant, and then i somehow fell asleep (wow what an exciting game experience!). I should note that i had 100% durability when i started..well,i woke up on morning, dead, items broke, and that stupid weapon skill was 2 from max. I mean, lol wut? Rogues using skill to beat stuff?
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:34 pm

Norrath wrote:The fact that there are methods of "spreading out the pain" doesn't make it any less stupid.

The fact that it will come along at some point doesn't make it any less stupid.

The fact that you can be a full level behind after TEN HOURS of playtime at max level makes it incredibly, unbelievably stupid.

The fact that you can spend THREE HOURS of doing nothing but swinging your weapon without maxing out your skill makes it incredibly, unbelievably stupid.

It is pointless. It adds nothing to the game.



Well, I didn't have that problem.

By the time I hit the next level the skill had fallen into place.
Maybe you guys were just unlucky or vice versa.

/shrug


Sure it wasn't great taking up bag space with different weapons but it was a hell of a lot better than wasting 10 hours like some of you did.
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Postby Selinaria » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:40 pm

I think what it really comes down to is this: What is the purpose of weapon skill?? To denote proficiency in a weapon?? To receive phat lewtz faster?? To punish melee and hunters while casters never have to worry about such a thing?

There is always an assumption that someone's skill is maxed in a given area. I have yet to get my ret weapons or my prot weapons to 400 and defense is at 399 on beta despite being 80 for about 12 hours of gameplay. Is there any good reason why it should take this long?

I am ok with weapon skill in principle, it just takes too long to long to level. There was a post a while ago (not a serious one) suggesting to put in "Spell affinity" and casters would have to cast spells for X time before they would be able to cast at max efficiency. Does that seem anymore fun than weapon skill?

The precedent is also already set : Hunter pets are always set to 5 levels lower than the hunter since leveling lower level pets was tedious and boring. This really is no different from a gameplay standpoint. Setting weapon skills to level - 5 or thereabouts would make every class in this game (melee and hunters more so than casters) happy.

And not only that but making the skillups more consistent would go a long way to making the system more enjoyable. The last point towards a weapon skill or defense takes waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too long and if every point near cap (not at low levels obviously) was say 10 swings it would be far better as well.

There is no place in a game for a mechanic that doesn't encourage actually playing the game to the fullest potential of your toon.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:15 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Amarant_Pally wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Amarant_Pally wrote:
uke wrote:Amarant, how much time to you have to waste each week?


As I've said before, I've leveled all my weapon skills (except for Polearms) doing things that I naturally do to prepare my character. IE. doing dailies, grinding buff food, killing that "omigawd creature that attacked me while I was mining a node", or during my leveling. I've never had to dedicate a certain amount of time per day, week, or month to level up skills, which is why I can't measure it.


I thought you said
/autoattack
/watchmovie


Nope, I've never had problems watching a movie while auto-attacking a mob that drops buff food. It requires little attention to the game, but yes, sometimes a mob was dead long before I realized it while my attention was my on TV screen. ;)

The point is, combining 1) weapon skill grinding 2) grinding buff food and 3) other (real life) activities removed some of the "tediousness" (in my case, to the point where it didn't seem like effort).


Well I was referring more to your

And what's so bad about watching a movie while you afk to train Polearms?


Comment which is at odds with other things you have said.

Still I just don't really have time for that type of thing, especially after recently hitting the level cap. If I'm farming, I can't swap to a lower skill weapon so that killing things takes 5 times as long and forces me to eat/drink more often. I need to be fairly efficient in my play time, particularly at that point in progression. A few months in, sure, I can mess around with stuff like that, but again, it's a braindead mechanic.


My overall point is: there's more than one way to skin a cat.

People who think you can only level weapon skills by "grinding them" are most likely the one's complaining about them. I, Me, and Myself have leveled all my weapon skills in various ways (leveling, while farming, while afk-watching-movie [which was also while farming], helping noobs/alts). They're all complimentary to each other, not independent. :)
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:20 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Blizzard has consistently shown a willingness to remove *completely* pointless and tedious timesinks from the game (see consumables changes, fishing levelling improvements, etc).


Fishing improvements? Do go on...


I'm referring to old stuff....in 2.2 I think it was they changed it so that you were guaranteed to get a bite on every cast. Believe it or not, leveling fishing used to be *even more* tedious than it currently is (and I leveled to 375 before that change :P)

People who think you can only level weapon skills by "grinding them" are most likely the one's complaining about them. I, Me, and Myself have leveled all my weapon skills in various ways (leveling, while farming, while afk-watching-movie [which was also while farming], helping noobs/alts). They're all complimentary to each other, not independent. Smile


...and we're point out that being forced to log-in, start up auto-attack, and go afk brings *absolutely nothing* to the WoW experience, and certainly is an annoying detraction from it. There simply is no upside to the weapon skilling system.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:27 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Blizzard has consistently shown a willingness to remove *completely* pointless and tedious timesinks from the game (see consumables changes, fishing levelling improvements, etc).


Fishing improvements? Do go on...


I'm referring to old stuff....in 2.2 I think it was they changed it so that you were guaranteed to get a bite on every cast. Believe it or not, leveling fishing used to be *even more* tedious than it currently is (and I leveled to 375 before that change :P)


Ahh, ok.

I was going to say, fishing's not that bad as it is as long as you're not a teetotaller. :) (Mr. Jaeger and I go fishing regularly... finally got my freakin queenfish for my arcanite pole!)

At least with fishing it's a fixed # of "successes" for each point. Maybe weapon skills could take a cue.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:30 pm

Dorvan wrote:
People who think you can only level weapon skills by "grinding them" are most likely the one's complaining about them. I, Me, and Myself have leveled all my weapon skills in various ways (leveling, while farming, while afk-watching-movie [which was also while farming], helping noobs/alts). They're all complimentary to each other, not independent. Smile


...and we're point out that being forced to log-in, start up auto-attack, and go afk brings *absolutely nothing* to the WoW experience, and certainly is an annoying detraction from it. There simply is no upside to the weapon skilling system.


...and I'm pointing out that no one is forced to grind them, as I've given many examples on how to level them up "naturally".

There are some things in life that are *only* tedious if people *make* them tedious. ;)
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:34 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:...and I'm pointing out that no one is forced to grind them, as I've given many examples on how to level them up "naturally".

There are some things in life that are *only* tedious if people *make* them tedious. ;)


....so otherwise you're forced to use weapons that aren't the most effective weapon for you because otherwise you weapon skill will fall too far behind. Still a crappy solution, and you still haven't addressed what positive thing weapon skill adds to the game.

Your whole point seems to be "there are ways to cope with/mitigate the annoyingness of leveling weapon skills, but that does nothing to answer why this mechanic should exist at all.

edit -- oh, and yeah....this weapon skill discussion should probably be split into a new thread.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:47 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Amarant_Pally wrote:...and I'm pointing out that no one is forced to grind them, as I've given many examples on how to level them up "naturally".

There are some things in life that are *only* tedious if people *make* them tedious. ;)


....so otherwise you're forced to use weapons that aren't the most effective weapon for you because otherwise you weapon skill will fall too far behind. Still a crappy solution, and you still haven't addressed what positive thing weapon skill adds to the game.

Your whole point seems to be "there are ways to cope with/mitigate the annoyingness of leveling weapon skills, but that does nothing to answer why this mechanic should exist at all.

edit -- oh, and yeah....this weapon skill discussion should probably be split into a new thread.


If you haven't followed any of my posts, here's the general summary:

While I do agree that there's no intelligent design behind weapon skills (and the need to increase them [besides the obvious replay value; and no...don't you dare equate "replay value" to "fun]), yes there are ways to negate the "tediousness" of leveling them by incorporating the skill leveling into things you naturally do on your character.

In other words, Y SO SRS?!
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Postby Selinaria » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:50 pm

yea the fact that blizzard is adding these particular training dummies in has really kinda opened the flood gate as far as what people will ask for. High armor dummies, low armor dummies, boss dummies, the list goes on.

Overall I do think they should have some different types of training dummies but it is probably too much to ask for a dummy that covers every possible raid scenario.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:52 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:If you haven't followed any of my posts, here's the general summary:

While I do agree that there's no intelligent design behind weapon skills (and the need to increase them), yes there are ways to negate the "tediousness" of leveling them by incorporating the skill leveling into things you naturally do on your character.

In other words, Y SO SRS?!


I have followed your posts, which in general have conveyed that message "Weapon skill leveling is fine, learn to deal with it". No one's saying that weapon skill leveling is an impossible obstacle, but it definitely eats up some time, it's certainly annoying, and it serves no positive gameplay purpose. Thus, we're saying we should push for its removal. This being Beta, I think it's the perfect time to ask for such a change. Obviously (as with every change request), we'll deal with it one way or another if it doesn't happen, but there's no reason to pretend like it's anything but the annoying time sink it is and tell people they're simply whining for wanting it changed.

If you're the rare person that randomly switches between one and two handed weapons and axes, maces, and swords while leveling, not to mention picking up those ever so abundant polearms....then grats to you I guess. You're certainly in the minority however, you had to choose weapons the provided suboptimal DPS at times to keep up that leveling, and it says absolutely nothing to the point that weapons skill leveling is an uneeded annoyance.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:12 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:My overall point is: there's more than one way to skin a cat.

People who think you can only level weapon skills by "grinding them" are most likely the one's complaining about them. I, Me, and Myself have leveled all my weapon skills in various ways (leveling, while farming, while afk-watching-movie [which was also while farming], helping noobs/alts). They're all complimentary to each other, not independent. :)


Except that implies that whenever my weapon skill is maxed that that is good enough, it's not. If I get a new weapon, I want to put it to use in short order. When I hit 80, I'll be running 10 mans and grinding other stuff. I'd prefer not to have to level a weapon while doing this stuff to make it take forever, because I simply won't have the time. I leveled all my current weapons on invincible mobs while I slept, or the weapon skill system would have been a huge pain in the ass, and now that they removed the ability to do that, it's going to be a huge pain in the ass.

It may not be for you, based on your time you are able to put in the game, but it is going to be for most people.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:14 pm

Reposting here:

Unlike many other time sinks, this mechanic is inherently tedious and offers no reward....and as opposed to things like cooking you can't choose an alternate grind (in that case, earning money and buying provisions instead...funny you should mention alchemy vendors, because that's exactly what the Auction House is). It's not my responsibility to figure out how to make time sinks fun, that's Blizzard's job. right now the weapon skill leveling mechanic in nothing but annoying, and Blizzard should fix it, not respond by saying "get creative and maybe you can find some way to make it less annoying for yourself".

In short, trade professions are an optional time sink: if you don't like them, you can get the vast majority of benefit from them by purchasing the wares produced by them from other players. Weapon skill leveling is tedious, mandatory, and pointless, and should be removed.
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Postby Grimmal » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:21 pm

Dragonzbane wrote:
Amarant_Pally wrote:
I guess it was a good idea while leveling up to keep a few weapons of each type in my bags.


Seriously.

Don't you people level weapons while leveling your character?
Maybe you should start.

I never had much trouble leveling weapon skill since I got smart at L50.
Never made that mistake again.


Tried leveling a alt recently? You level before you even max your skill anymore. Saturday night after the wife and daughter went to bed (I'm 3rd shift so my playtime) I spent about 8 hours on my alt rogue. She went from 44-51 and her sword skill never caught up. Let alone try and keep dagger and mace updated.

Don't get me wrong, I love the new leveling pace as I'm pretty damn efficient when it come to questing. But, it has made things interesting on keeping basic skills up to date. It's really just not possible to keep all your skills up to date unless you are leveling slow for some reason.
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