Leveling Weapon Skill in Wrath

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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:57 am

Wonder if blizz could add something useful to weapon skill, something that doesn't scale, but useful. Maybe a requirement to equip weapons, or small procs like the talent weapon specs...
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:00 pm

Dragonzbane wrote:
Amarant_Pally wrote:
I guess it was a good idea while leveling up to keep a few weapons of each type in my bags.


Seriously.

Don't you people level weapons while leveling your character?
Maybe you should start.

I never had much trouble leveling weapon skill since I got smart at L50.
Never made that mistake again.


Well I'm not sure how this makes it any faster, it just spreads it out a bit. Like I said, I had everything maxed out at level 70. I swapped to a mace around level 76ish and I've been 80 for about a week, and I'm still 4 points off the max.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:15 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:
uke wrote:
So to clarify, you think that tedious grinds that serve absolutely no purpose and make you literally waste 3 hours just to level a weapon skill is a GOOD thing? That you enjoy it?

Is that your position, that you enjoy tedious, useless grinds?



edit: BTW, leveling professions is not in the same category as needing to level weapon skills to use a new axe, so such argument does not apply.


No, I'm not saying I enjoy them. Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm saying there's not reason to "waa, waa, waa" about them, as they (mostly) come natural to the leveling process (if you don't stick to 1 weapon type) and, otherwise, aren't overly complicated to level up.

Edit: And to clarify, since my point was missed, about the tradeskills: If the purpose is to remove anything anyone finds "tedious"...well, I find leveling tradeskills "tedious" (definitely moreso than weapon leveling). OK, go!


First of all, clearly leveling a weapon does not come natural to the level up process. First, in wrath, you'll barely level a weapon to the max of your level before hitting the next level. I probably have a good 10 hours of gameplay (at level 80) on a weapon I've been using since level 76, it was maxed at level 70, and I'm still 4 points (almost an entire level) away from maxing it out.

The difference between tradeskills and weapon skills are that tradeskills are completely optional, and leveling them gets you something beyond the baseline. Leveling a weapon is/does neither.
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Postby uke » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:20 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:
uke wrote:
So to clarify, you think that tedious grinds that serve absolutely no purpose and make you literally waste 3 hours just to level a weapon skill is a GOOD thing? That you enjoy it?

Is that your position, that you enjoy tedious, useless grinds?



edit: BTW, leveling professions is not in the same category as needing to level weapon skills to use a new axe, so such argument does not apply.


No, I'm not saying I enjoy them. Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm saying there's not reason to "waa, waa, waa" about them, as they (mostly) come natural to the leveling process (if you don't stick to 1 weapon type) and, otherwise, aren't overly complicated to level up.

Edit: And to clarify, since my point was missed, about the tradeskills: If the purpose is to remove anything anyone finds "tedious"...well, I find leveling tradeskills "tedious" (definitely moreso than weapon leveling). OK, go!


Point taken.

Anyway, why I'm 'waa waa'ing about it:

I leveled pretty much from lvl 15-70 as protection specced, never equipping or using a two handed weapon. Only a few months ago, I decided to take up Ret spec. Up until the, I've only used 1-handed weapons for the bulk of this toon's life. I cobble some gear together, get me a nice oathkeeper from the AH, and find my 2 handed mace skill at the nice high level of 20/350. "No biggie" says I, "I'll just fly up to SMV and pound away at a corruptor of air for a while". I'm pounding on him, watching my weapon skill go 21, 22, 23, 24, etc with each hit, not too bad. I go ahead and afk a bit.

I come back later and he's in his 320's, 20 min later and he's at 330. Come back about 40 min later and it's at 340. And hour later and he's at 345. I finally say the heck with it, and just go pvp/do dailies with 5 skill left to go. I think it took a week of normal playing to get those last 5 weapon skills. Keep in mind that taking a 2 handed weapon to a raid that's not maxed out is a BIG no-no.

A few weeks later, I landed a Trollbane axe from ZA. Repeat the process all over again. Again, it took close to a week to get my weapon skill maxed.

Finally scored my S2 sword this week. Repeat again until about lvl 340, where I was invited to a Gruul's run as a ret pally. Even though my sword was better than my Trollbane axe, I was forced to use the inferior axe if I wanted to actually HIT something. I think my 2h sword skill is currently about 347 as of this moment.

My gripe is not in the fact that you need to use a weapon to get the skill for it. My gripe is in the (in my opinion) WAY too much time required to get those last 15 levels. That's where tweaking needs to be made. There is a balance between making leveling a skill to easy and too long and tedious. I think it's on the side of being way too long and tedious at the moment. It literally takes longer to go from 335-350 than from 1-335. That is what I think needs to be fixed.

The big difference between that and tradeskills is: imagine if the only way to get the last 10 levels of your tradeskill, you have ONLY grey recipies available to skill up on. And you MUST have it maxed in order to raid, or do pretty much anything at level 70. Would that not be overly tedious?
Last edited by uke on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:21 pm

Fridmarr wrote:First of all, clearly leveling a weapon does not come natural to the level up process. First, in wrath, you'll barely level a weapon to the max of your level before hitting the next level. I probably have a good 10 hours of gameplay (at level 80) on a weapon I've been using since level 76, it was maxed at level 70, and I'm still 4 points (almost an entire level) away from maxing it out.

The difference between tradeskills and weapon skills are that tradeskills are completely optional, and leveling them gets you something beyond the baseline. Leveling a weapon is/does neither.


Granted, you might not be at 355 skill when you ding 71. But you'll soon be 357-358 as you ding 72. 358-340 as you Ding 72. So on and so forth. But when you ding 80, are you *really* going to stop swinging your weapon? Maybe when I said "Natural in the leveling process," I should have said "Natural in the leveling/gearing up process." I hope those complaining are like myself, and plan to run at least an instance every day. I garauntee a at least a week after dinging 80, all pertinent weapon skills will be maxed. ;)

Oh, and leveling weapon skills is largely optional too; you can skip using weapon types altogether, although doing so increases the "tediousness" of leveling said skipped weapon skills later on. I can't say that I've ever had a 2Handed axe worthy of swinging, yet my skill is at 349 (2Hand mace is 350, yet I use a Cat's Edge when I go Ret...GG? I did, however, use a World Breaker for a while).
Last edited by Amarant_Pally on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:26 pm

uke wrote:My gripe is not in the fact that you need to use a weapon to get the skill for it. My gripe is in the (in my opinion) WAY too much time required to get those last 15 levels. That's where tweaking needs to be made. There is a balance between making leveling a skill to easy and too long and tedious. I think it's on the side of being way too long and tedious at the moment. It literally takes longer to go from 335-350 than from 1-335. That is what I think needs to be fixed.


I haven't commented on "the length of time to go from 335-350" as I've only been responding to the "waa, waa, waa"'s about having the skills removed completely.

I haven't recorded, or attempted to estimate, how long it's taken me to level any weapon type. I just switched around my weapons while I was grinding things normally (daily quests, grinding sta/spelldmg food, etc.) to get them maxed. This helps for a seamless transition as you're not just "grinding" your weapon skill, but you're doing other constructive things for your character at the same time!
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:27 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:I garauntee a at least a week after dinging 80, all pertinent weapon skills will be maxed. ;)



And by a week, you mean 168 hours of playtime, yes? :)
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Postby Norrath » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 pm

The fact that there are methods of "spreading out the pain" doesn't make it any less stupid.

The fact that it will come along at some point doesn't make it any less stupid.

The fact that you can be a full level behind after TEN HOURS of playtime at max level makes it incredibly, unbelievably stupid.

The fact that you can spend THREE HOURS of doing nothing but swinging your weapon without maxing out your skill makes it incredibly, unbelievably stupid.

It is pointless. It adds nothing to the game.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:First of all, clearly leveling a weapon does not come natural to the level up process. First, in wrath, you'll barely level a weapon to the max of your level before hitting the next level. I probably have a good 10 hours of gameplay (at level 80) on a weapon I've been using since level 76, it was maxed at level 70, and I'm still 4 points (almost an entire level) away from maxing it out.

The difference between tradeskills and weapon skills are that tradeskills are completely optional, and leveling them gets you something beyond the baseline. Leveling a weapon is/does neither.


Granted, you might not be at 355 skill when you ding 71. But you'll soon be 357-358 as you ding 72. 358-340 as you Ding 72. So on and so forth. But when you ding 80, are you *really* going to stop swinging your weapon? Maybe when I said "Natural in the leveling process," I should have said "Natural in the leveling/gearing up process." I hope those complaining are like myself, and plan to run at least an instance every day. I garauntee a at least a week after dinging 80, all pertinent weapon skills will be maxed. ;)

Oh, and leveling weapon skills is largely optional too; you can skip using weapon types altogether, although doing so increases the "tediousness" of leveling said skipped weapon skills later on. I can't say that I've ever had a 2Handed axe worthy of swinging, yet my skill is at 349 (2Hand mace is 350, yet I use a Cat's Edge when I go Ret...GG?).


Since hitting 80, I've run no less than 4 instances ( I think it's 5 but I can't remember exactly), and I continued questing as normal. It's pretty much a full level of fighting to get 5 points, so roughly about the time I would have hit level 86 I can expect the weapon I've been using since level 76 to be maxed out...Actually it's a bit faster than that since you gain points faster with a bigger delta between max weapon skill and actual weapon skill. I'd guess around level 82-83 I'll have my mace maxed out. Then I can switch back to swords, that's dumb.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:30 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:
Amarant_Pally wrote:I garauntee a at least a week after dinging 80, all pertinent weapon skills will be maxed. ;)



And by a week, you mean 168 hours of playtime, yes? :)


I said "pertinent" weapon skills; that doesn't mean all of them! But if I ever see the need to get Polearms past 304, I'll be doing my dailies with one. :)
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Postby uke » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:30 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:
uke wrote:My gripe is not in the fact that you need to use a weapon to get the skill for it. My gripe is in the (in my opinion) WAY too much time required to get those last 15 levels. That's where tweaking needs to be made. There is a balance between making leveling a skill to easy and too long and tedious. I think it's on the side of being way too long and tedious at the moment. It literally takes longer to go from 335-350 than from 1-335. That is what I think needs to be fixed.


I haven't commented on "the length of time to go from 335-350" as I've only been responding to the "waa, waa, waa"'s about having the skills removed completely.

I haven't recorded, or attempted to estimate, how long it's taken me to level any weapon type. I just switched around my weapons while I was grinding things normally (daily quests, grinding sta/spelldmg food, etc.) to get them maxed. This helps for a seamless transition as you're not just "grinding" your weapon skill, but you're doing other constructive things for your character at the same time!


Not all of us used all different weapon types when were were leveling. Like I said before, I went prot all the way and just started as ret, having to level all my 2h weapon skills from scratch. I'm sure I'm not the only person to have done so. That's what makes it a pain.

If they quickened the pace of the last few weapon levels from what they are now, I'd be satisfied with that.
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Postby uke » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:33 pm

Norrath wrote:The fact that there are methods of "spreading out the pain" doesn't make it any less stupid.

The fact that it will come along at some point doesn't make it any less stupid.

The fact that you can be a full level behind after TEN HOURS of playtime at max level makes it incredibly, unbelievably stupid.

The fact that you can spend THREE HOURS of doing nothing but swinging your weapon without maxing out your skill makes it incredibly, unbelievably stupid.

It is pointless. It adds nothing to the game.


Bolded that parts that encapsulate everything I've been saying.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:37 pm

uke wrote:Not all of us used all different weapon types when were were leveling. Like I said before, I went prot all the way and just started as ret, having to level all my 2h weapon skills from scratch. I'm sure I'm not the only person to have done so. That's what makes it a pain.

If they quickened the pace of the last few weapon levels from what they are now, I'd be satisfied with that.


I still haven't disagreed that maybe the "leveling time" for weapons could, perhaps, be decreased. As is, I've never found it tedious, thus I don't agree with the "waa, waa, waa"ing about it. Removing it altogether is pointless, in my opinion.

In some sense, it might even be a balance issue. Running an instance at 80 with everyone's weapon skills maxed would (technically) be faster than running an instance at 80 with everyone's weapon skills 5-10 points below cap. Although I do doubt Blizzard has looked at it that way...

I do, however, believe Blizzard intended for people to use different weapon types while leveling up, which is why quests don't always offer a Sword as the reward.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:42 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:
In some sense, it might even be a balance issue. Running an instance at 80 with everyone's weapon skills maxed would (technically) be faster than running an instance at 80 with everyone's weapon skills 5-10 points below cap. Although I do doubt Blizzard has looked at it that way...


this flat out makes no sense. Given enough time, weapon skills of players WILL be maxed, so how could you have weapon skill -5 be an intended balancing factor?
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Postby uke » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:45 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:
I still haven't disagreed that maybe the "leveling time" for weapons could, perhaps, be decreased.


This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at.

As is, I've never found it tedious, thus I don't agree with the "waa, waa, waa"ing about it. Removing it altogether is pointless, in my opinion.


Obviously, one's idea of 'tedious' is a subjective concept. I, and others in this thread, though find it so. I'd be fine with leaving it in, if it wasn't as painful to do.

I do, however, believe Blizzard intended for people to use different weapon types while leveling up, which is why quests don't always offer a Sword as the reward.


This is fine for pure dps classes who will be using one of only a few weapon types throughout their life. But again, what about warriors/pallys who went one spec all through leveling and now have to start over if they switch specs? Do you intend to suggest that I should have taken time to 2-hand tank as I was leveling up, or I should stop my leveling process completely to take a few days to get my other weapon skills up to snuff, using weapons I have no use for at the time?

Again, it's grinding for the sake of grinding, with no real point. It's not fun, which is that this game is *supposed* to be. This isn't a job for me, this is a fun activity to do. If something in the game is more painful then fun, then yeah, I'm going to gripe about it. I dont' pay $15 a month to grind away for hours doing pointless tasks.
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