Blessing of Sanctuary

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Postby lusisia » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:43 pm

Splug wrote:I honestly have no idea which it is, and which is the case is anyone's guess. From a balancing standpoint, 10 rage vs 20 runic power vs 2% mana seems a bit skewed, and would make extreme changes to threat models with or without it. From an opportunity cost standpoint, 3% damage reduction* and 1 rage per parry is going to be less EH and less threat generated than 10% stam/str, meaning that either two paladins with 11+ in prot are needed or BoSanc is likely to again fall into disuse in favor of its earlier alternative.

*- Keep in mind that if your raid uses a disc priest, this becomes 0%.

-Splug


I didn't know disc priests existed anywhere outside of pvp ;) But seriously, I don't see Sanctuary as an end-game blessing. Maybe only if there's a spare one. I really consider it the outgear/farm/trash blessing. If you don't happen to have a disc priest, it has the additional damage reduction benefit.
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Postby Playdoh » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:00 pm

With the way that they are stacking things wouldn't it be conceivable to have the 3% damage reduction from discipline priest BUT with BoSanc that you would get the added rage/RP/mana return... they are separate functions from dodge/parry/block.


I agree that kings is probably going to be the preferred BLESSING but hopefully that buff becomes base line, so paladins don't have to fill they HAVE to spec in any one tree just for that point.

Then with all of the RAIDS it would seem you would need a pally for kings.
A disc priest or a tankadin for 3% decrease dmg
A tree or a tankadin for 3% healing bonus
retribution pally for might or a feral druid
I can't remember the offset for the wisdom blessing.

But to me it just gives us more options of getting to be able to raid in 10 or 25 mans, where more guilds and groups are going to get more buffs and not less.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:57 pm

Like I posted elsewhere, I'm pretty sure the tooltip is wrong, not the rage return. Things like bloodrage, improved berserker rage, mighty rage potions, etc. all list their "energize" values as 10x what the tooltip says, because rage is handled in 10ths of a point behind the scenes. (the bar goes to 1000 as far as the game is concerned, not 100).

I don't know if DKs have a similar ability that directly charges their RP, but that would be a good indication of whether it should be 2 or 20.

And really, looking at things like mother bear and justified killing... 10 rage on DPB is hugely more rage than 6 on a parry or 3 on a dodge. But, it's about equivalent if it's 1, because there's a lot more DPB-ing going on than just D-ing or P-ing, as it were. :) Given avoidance rates and scaling, 6 rage on a P is going to be ~1 rage per attack received, assuming we're not going to be getting the same amounts of avoidance on gear anymore. And if bears are dodging at 40% ish, that's again sort of close to ~1 per attack.

Meanwhile prot warriors are getting basically a flat 10% damage boost from improved D stance now, so that should ALSO help keep their rage up when they're avoiding a lot of damage. (now also gives 100% enrage chance on DPB)

It certainly seems vitally important for us, though, to have BoSanc up ahead of everything else. It also means we're really going to want all 4 blessings on us when we're raiding, if possible. They're all extremely good benefits for tanking, unlike now.

Hrm, also interesting is that warriors and bears have their own rage gen talents, AND can have ours, while we still only have ours. I guess if ours is that much more powerful for us than theirs is for them, it's a wash anyway...
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:00 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:It certainly seems vitally important for us, though, to have BoSanc up ahead of everything else. It also means we're really going to want all 4 blessings on us when we're raiding, if possible.


That seems like bad design to me, sanctuary should probably be a hand spell, or roll it into improved kings.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:06 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:It certainly seems vitally important for us, though, to have BoSanc up ahead of everything else. It also means we're really going to want all 4 blessings on us when we're raiding, if possible.


That seems like bad design to me, sanctuary should probably be a hand spell, or roll it into improved kings.


Rolling it into another talent makes sense to me. I think I'd be on the "make ImpRF 1 point and add this to it" bandwagon, myself.

-- Not that making BoSanc our most-desired blessing is bad design, mind you. It IS "the" prot blessing. Kings is in prot, sure, but it's low-hanging even if getting there isn't as appealing to other specs. Making BoSanc our #1 blessing is fine by me. Making all the blessings (except maybe BoW) really useful for tanking is rough, imo.
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Postby Splug » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:06 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:I don't know if DKs have a similar ability that directly charges their RP, but that would be a good indication of whether it should be 2 or 20.
Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

Regarding the rest of your post, I actually did not know about the way rage was modelled. I knew fractional rage carried over, but the invisible tenths being stored out of a bin of 1000 was a detail I hadn't thought about, though it makes a lot of sense from a coding perspective (allowing fixed point calculations instead of floating point). Anyway, it does seem a lot more likely that it's really just 1 rage per avoid from a balance point - 10 would be fairly absurd. However, it does put BoSanc below kings on the priority list, such that if only one paladin has both then the 21-pointer is going to be overlooked in favor of the 11-pointer.

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Postby Arcand » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:08 pm

What are the beta warriors saying about it? (Or is this not even beta-live yet? Can't be assed to search back through sixteen pages.)
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:10 pm

Splug wrote:Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

-Splug


Thanks. Hrm... I don't think wowhead knows how to present DK abilities yet. The effects on it certainly aren't intelligible from a RP standpoint.
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:10 pm

Arcand wrote:What are the beta warriors saying about it? (Or is this not even beta-live yet? Can't be assed to search back through sixteen pages.)


BoSanc is definitely live
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:14 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:It certainly seems vitally important for us, though, to have BoSanc up ahead of everything else. It also means we're really going to want all 4 blessings on us when we're raiding, if possible.


That seems like bad design to me, sanctuary should probably be a hand spell, or roll it into improved kings.


Rolling it into another talent makes sense to me. I think I'd be on the "make ImpRF 1 point and add this to it" bandwagon, myself.

-- Not that making BoSanc our most-desired blessing is bad design, mind you. It IS "the" prot blessing. Kings is in prot, sure, but it's low-hanging even if getting there isn't as appealing to other specs. Making BoSanc our #1 blessing is fine by me. Making all the blessings (except maybe BoW) really useful for tanking is rough, imo.


It's not the relative power of it that bothers me. In order to get Kings and Sanctuary, you'll most likely have two pallys spec'd for kings, and 4 in the raid, that seems a bit much.

I'd prefer a 3 blessing model overall, but I doubt that'll happen.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:21 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I'd prefer a 3 blessing model overall, but I doubt that'll happen.
They don't want to deviate from that at all, so it might happen.

The current shape of Sanctuary is great, BUT;..yeah, kings. Dammit.
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Postby earanduin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:23 pm

I don't think the rage/RP/mana back component of BoS is going anywhere, although they may adjust the proportions given that a Rejuv from a talented resto druid would yield a similar effect.

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Obviously, BoS is much more powerful for tanks given greater frequency of power regeneration. I think the druid spell may be toned down relative to BoS for the solitary reason of it also including Energy. Also, there is nothing from stopping you from running with multiple resto druids to scale the effect.

Replenish and BoS serve similar but different purposes - BoS is tank specific and that tank must be the focus of the mob's attack, whereas Replenish's strength is that it is raid-wide including healers/dps/OT/MT.
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Postby Galoheart » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:24 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
It's not the relative power of it that bothers me. In order to get Kings and Sanctuary, you'll most likely have two pallys spec'd for kings, and 4 in the raid, that seems a bit much.

I'd prefer a 3 blessing model overall, but I doubt that'll happen.






Another reason to advocate BoS being rolled into like RF maybe or some other talent. Or make it a Self Buff Talent with a different name. That way you can have both.

If they gave BoS was a self buff that also means you can use BoM to AP scale increase spell for Protection doing DPS while grinding or Increase threat in 5 mans. As well as all the other benefit Raiding having a Self Buff in BoS and having our Kings which we will need.

I don't want to have to choose between the tank having to have Kings which you know you will need and BoS in current form for the benefit of having mana as well as its benefits.
Last edited by Galoheart on Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Splug » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:29 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:
Splug wrote:Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

-Splug


Thanks. Hrm... I don't think wowhead knows how to present DK abilities yet. The effects on it certainly aren't intelligible from a RP standpoint.
It's worth noting that it also activates all runes. The 25 RP seems like more of a afterthought/throw-in. Maybe the Butchery tallent (1 RP per 5 seconds, 10 RP upon landing an honorable kill) is easier to decipher?

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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:58 pm

Arcand wrote:What are the beta warriors saying about it? (Or is this not even beta-live yet? Can't be assed to search back through sixteen pages.)


http://www.bennlinger.com/upload/blessi ... ctuary.jpg

Posted that a few pages ago. It's only returning one rage atm.
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