Stacking for 10-mans (changes lol)

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Stacking for 10-mans (changes lol)

Postby Keion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:27 am

So, how do we stack for 10-mans? If we have a DPS check fight (and at some boss or gear level we do). We stack either physical or magic damage cause we need the buffs. Physical means too many melee which is bad for survivability.

My idea:

Tank 1: Paladin
Tank 2: DK
Healers: Paladin, Drood, Priest
DPS: Ele shaman, mage, lock, mage, lock
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Re: Stacking for 10-mans (changes lol)

Postby honorshammer » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:28 am

Keion wrote:So, how do we stack for 10-mans? If we have a DPS check fight (and at some boss or gear level we do). We stack either physical or magic damage cause we need the buffs. Physical means too many melee which is bad for survivability.

My idea:

Tank 1: Paladin
Tank 2: DK
Healers: Paladin, Drood, Priest
DPS: Ele shaman, mage, lock, mage, lock


Too many Tanks and Healers. Blizzard stated in an interview that 10 mans would be balanced around 1 tank and 2 healers.
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Postby Keion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:31 am

Source please? Raids need 2-4 times more healers and blizz adds more tanking classes. /shoo blizz
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:39 am

The problem with your analysis is fight dynamics and stat consolidation.

Fight Dynamics. A fight very well could create movement for ranged, melee or both. Let's take some examples from current raiding. Zul'jin phase 1 has a whirlwind that requires melee to run out to avoid damage. This significantly drops the value of melee DPS in phase 1. Now, look at Gurtogg Bloodboil. Gurtogg's "Blood boil" ability forces ranged DPS into movement which prevents a caster's most significant damage spells lowering their DPS.

Now you could end up with a fight that contains multiple elements of this, or two different fights in the instance where melee would be optimal on one and ranged on the other. You would want a more balanced group to avoid cumbersome replacement times.

Stat consolidation is nothing new. Many buffs that were originally intended for melee or caster or healer are now raid-wide. Several buffs already aided both types of DPS regardless. A buff such as Totem of Wrath provides +3% critical strike damage for both now. A buff such as Ferocious Inspiration already gave any class a benefit with +3% damage.

Branching off stat consolidation, glyphs now provide an opportunity for buffs that only benefit one DPS type to give significant benefit to those it traditionally doesn't. For example, there is a glyph for Blessing of Might that gives spell power. This makes it worthwhile for casters even though attack power generally does not benefit them.
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Postby honorshammer » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:41 am

Keion wrote:Source please? Raids need 2-4 times more healers and blizz adds more tanking classes. /shoo blizz


You can see the interview in its entirety here: http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/18754

Here's a couple of highlights.

Jeff Kaplan: In 10 man raiding, we declare and say without a doubt, we expect you to have 1 tank there. 1 tank, and two healers. Some groups might bring 2 tanks and 3 healers, or 1 tank and an offtank. And then in 25, we've pretty much come out and said we expect you to have 3 tanks, and more healers than just two obviously.
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Postby Andryana » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:47 am

Honorshammer wrote:
Keion wrote:Source please? Raids need 2-4 times more healers and blizz adds more tanking classes. /shoo blizz


You can see the interview in its entirety here: http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/18754

Here's a couple of highlights.

Jeff Kaplan: In 10 man raiding, we declare and say without a doubt, we expect you to have 1 tank there. 1 tank, and two healers. Some groups might bring 2 tanks and 3 healers, or 1 tank and an offtank. And then in 25, we've pretty much come out and said we expect you to have 3 tanks, and more healers than just two obviously.


I don't like that.. so in 10-man raids it's a DPS fest and only 1 tank and 2 healers?? That pretty much screws tanks on the 10-man guilds... you got the main tank and that's it.. other tanks just sit-out.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:49 am

You already do 10 men with 1 tank and 2 healers.

You ofc bring more when still learning it. Expect to do same for wotlk.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:50 am

Worldie wrote:You already do 10 men with 1 tank and 2 healers.

You ofc bring more when still learning it. Expect to do same for wotlk.


Well, in fairness, that's definitely not true of ZA. At a minimum you always take an offtank for the instance....even if it's a DPS Warrior.
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Postby Andryana » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:53 am

Well on ZA you still need 2 tanks for most of the fights.. i just wish they would follow that path.

They make a new class that can tank to fight the "supposed" tank shortage and then on 10-man you won't be needing 2 tanks, just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:53 am

People do 1 tank 2 healer ZA's already. You just use an arms warrior to absorb lynx lashes.

I've done lynx slash absorption in full retribution gear with sword/board.
Also tanked first boss with an arms warrior who died at 50%. Solo tanked last 50%.
Dragonhawk is also possible with a single tank if your group is smart. People basically do it already when a prot paladin isn't present since aggro on 15 mobs is impossible for druid/warrior (besides aoe taunt).

So... in both 10-mans it's significantly possible to already follow their criteria depending on your gear. Like Worldie said, before that gear level you'd probably be better off slower and safer (1 tank, 1 possible off-tank class, 2 pure healers, 1 extra healer or ranged class capable of healing).
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Postby Mordinm » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:58 am

Elsie wrote:People do 1 tank 2 healer ZA's already. You just use an arms warrior to absorb lynx lashes.


See what that warrior is doing is called tanking. So you have 2 people tanking. The fact that he is dps for parts of the instance doesn't mean he's not a tank.
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Postby Origon » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:09 am

That'd be the 1 tank 1 offtank they're talking about, not 2 fulltime tanks. 2 tanks would be a prot warrior doing their dps on trash and tanking the bosses
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:15 am

See what that warrior is doing is called tanking. So you have 2 people tanking. The fact that he is dps for parts of the instance doesn't mean he's not a tank.

Tanking is generating significant threat on a mob while trying to keep yourself alive through mitigating damage.
Normally, an 'off-tank' on lynx mitigates damage on lynx, holds the spirit, and is ready to generate threat on lynx in case the other tank ('MT') dies.

That warrior is not tanking. That warrior is soaking. He is not there to hold aggro or grab the lynx ghost. The extent of his 'tanking' is putting on a shield which is no more tanking than a holy paladin using bubble to avoid Chain Lightning from the totem.

If you want to get crazy it's certainly possible to solo tank lynx without a soak in full sunwell gear and sufficient HP buffs. You would just need 2 extremely geared healers or 2.5 good healers.

I mean, by your consideration, when a paladin 'solo tanks' Karazhan anyone with secondary aggro on moroes is a tank. The person in ZA just happens to be using plate armor.
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Postby Mordinm » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:17 am

Origon wrote:That'd be the 1 tank 1 offtank they're talking about, not 2 fulltime tanks. 2 tanks would be a prot warrior doing their dps on trash and tanking the bosses


Well then by that logic most 25 man raids require only a single tank, BT, Hyjal, TK, SSC and Sunwell all have fight that only need one tank. You're not going to solo tank kara unless you overgear the instance. You don't solo tank ZA peroid.

What I really wonder is how they are going to scale down fights that need 3 tanks to only need one. Say hello to everything being CCable in 10 mans and learn to love that oh so creative hateful strike mechanic in 25 mans I guess.

Elsie wrote:Tanking is generating significant threat on a mob while trying to keep yourself alive through mitigating damage.
Normally, an 'off-tank' on lynx mitigates damage on lynx, holds the spirit, and is ready to generate threat on lynx in case the other tank ('MT') dies.

Tanking is taking damage so someone else in the raid doesn't have to take that damage. Doesn't really matter if you are taking that damage because you are top on threat or because of where you stand. RoS for example, phase 1 has no threat concerns at all and yet he is still tanked.
Last edited by Mordinm on Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Rothes » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:20 am

Mordinm wrote:
Origon wrote:That'd be the 1 tank 1 offtank they're talking about, not 2 fulltime tanks. 2 tanks would be a prot warrior doing their dps on trash and tanking the bosses


Well then by that logic most 25 man raids require only a single tank, BT, Hyjal, TK, SSC and Sunwell all have fight that only need one tank. You're not going to solo tank kara unless you overgear the instance. You don't solo tank ZA peroid.

What I really wonder is how they are going to scale down fights that need 3 tanks to only need one. Say hello to everything being CCable in 10 mans and learn to love that oh so creative hateful strike mechanic in 25 mans I guess.


That interview is from May (which is fairly old compared to the rate things change pre-release) and I can't watch it at work. But I would bet that most 10 mans will require 2 tanks and 3 healers until you out gear it.
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