The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

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Postby iliya » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:47 am

lusisia wrote:
Well I don't want to argue semantics but if the change goes live, it's not really fair to call it a nerf because you never had it to begin with. It's just like Art of War:

Live - No art of war
Beta - Art of war v.1->Art of war v.2
Live 3.0 - Art of war v.3

You can't really say that AoW was nerf'd because you never had it before. It's just how I feel really. People throw the "nerf" word around more than the word terrorism is thrown around now.


We may as well argue semantics, because I don't feel like like saying "Tom"AY"to" while you say "Tom"AH"to".

I take all these changes at face value, again, regardless of the fact it's a beta. And it only makes me sore that I never had a chance to see the super critting AoW before all the whiny babies cried that they were actually getting killed by paladins.

I'm gonna have to disagree with your position on this. It doesn't matter if I ever got a chance to use AoW or JotW when they actually worked. A nerf is a nerf, regardless of whether it's in beta or gold or post-release.
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Postby Sechs » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:48 am

This thread gives me a headache. :|

All i could see when i read the blue post was awesome sanctuary will be useful, awesome raids will be way more flexibly no more "I have i to wait 2 hours for X-class to show up so we can do this boss".

I will still be taking imp devotion aura we usually don't run with more then one resto druid so it be very likely whole raid(tank included) wont get the 3% extra heal, beside on many fights we don't even want the healers or raid to be close to the mobbs as they do some massive 30 yard range aoe or what not.
This will give me 100% up time with devotion aura, almost 2k extra armor, 3% more healing and the best part about this is i will never have to relie on someone else to do it for me! YES PLX if you ask me.

Sanctuary and BoK might prove to be a problem tho if BoK is not made baseline or moved up the prot tree, else the prot pally be the only pally with them and whats worse they are both tanking blessings.

To Shoju.
Rogues will always be the number 1 dps class and those they will always have a spot in raids. Beside even if cats and dps warriors have the same dps rogues have way more survivability then they both have. Vanish and cloak of shadow is the shit to have in melee.
Last edited by Sechs on Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:50 am

Stickied for consolidated discussion and great justice.
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Postby Modal » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:57 am

Anyone else notice that Curse of Weakness now has a 20% slow debuff component but that's not listed as not-stacking with Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap, etc.? I'm guessing that's just an oversight but it's probably worth asking about.
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Postby Modal » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:58 am

Also since BoM is likely to be redundant now in big raids, this would be a great time to make Kings baseline so ret pallies can bring it while we bring our new damage reduction.
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Postby Nubbadin » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:01 am

Shoju wrote:Before you say that I'm wrong, hear me out. There is absolutely NO reason to bring a rogue.

1.) Druids are getting reworked so that Catform is more acceptable DPS. A friend of mine has almost 4k ap in cat form in t5 content with 2 pieces of badge gear under raid buffs, and just over 3k without. (so you can't claim it's the OPness of badge gear.

2.) Expose weakness and imp hunter's mark no longer help rogues.

3) in raid content, you are going to be able to mix and match to get the buffs without "NEEDING" to bring all the classes. So now, your rogue slots can be taken up by druids, enh shaman, and hunters more readily. By ignoring the high dps class, you will be able to make up the difference by smart stakcing your groups so that you can min max your buffs and your raid never notices the lack of the pure damage class.

4.) Rogues are the only 'pure damage' class. Every other class has a buff that helps the cause. Rogues are just greedy bastards who can't help the group except by pewpewing MOOOR. Sure Warriors only have shouts, but have the added effect of tossing on a shield and tanking for a bit longer than a rogue if the pull goes bad.


Stating "there is no reason to bring a rogue to a raid" at this stage of the beta is just a tad bit overboard. If I remember correctly, they havn't had a whole lot of changes in the beta thus far, so the general assumption is that they will be looked at later down along the line. Plus, being that their main role is just dps with little utility, there really isn't much of a chance to balance/adjust that until there is testing done with characters at lvl 80 doing the lvl 80 5mans and entry level raids.

In regards to comparing a rogue to a druid with the example of his AP, that just doesn't add up, due to the fact that druids have huge AP amounts to make up for the lack of weapon dps. My druid alt in T4/Kara-ish level gear is rocking 3k AP in kitty gear unbuffed. There is no real way of comparing DPS without seeing the classes in raid situation.

It's true that rogues don't bring a whole lot of anything to raids besides DPS, and I'm fairly certain Blizz knows this and they will continue to be one of the top DPS classes on into WotLK, just give it time.
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Postby Candiru » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:05 am

Modal wrote:Also since BoM is likely to be redundant now in big raids, this would be a great time to make Kings baseline so ret pallies can bring it while we bring our new damage reduction.


Not true, its adds +Spelldamage to the casters. (unless glyph for BattleShout does this too?)

Ironically its now better for casters than melee :p
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:08 am

Making shout and BoM overlap really looked silly. Now it's a buff that works solely on casters, and only when glyphed for it.

TBC Blessing of sanctuary, anyone?
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Postby Modal » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:10 am

Candiru wrote:Not true, its adds +Spelldamage to the casters. (unless glyph for BattleShout does this too?)

Ironically its now better for casters than melee :p


This isn't going to be enough to make people actually use it. Why waste a glyph on a mostly useless buff?
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Postby Shoju » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:15 am

Nubbadin wrote:
Stating "there is no reason to bring a rogue to a raid" at this stage of the beta is just a tad bit overboard. If I remember correctly, they havn't had a whole lot of changes in the beta thus far, so the general assumption is that they will be looked at later down along the line. Plus, being that their main role is just dps with little utility, there really isn't much of a chance to balance/adjust that until there is testing done with characters at lvl 80 doing the lvl 80 5mans and entry level raids.



Sorry I should have been more specific with this. I realize now that it was vague. Currently, outside of swp to down brutallus, there is no reason to bring a rogue to a raid. I have done more raiding with 0 rogues now than I have with a rogue (and I have a 70 rogue to raid with) and it's not missed. Now, my guild isn't into swp, but I know that the brut fight would demand a contingent of rogues to beat the 6 min enrage.

This is only further demonstrated by the new buff/debuff list that lists mind numbing poison as the only debuff that rogues will get up. So that means....... Expose and hemo are self only at this stage of beta?

Their is another big problem with rogues, and it's nothing that the player can help. Think about rogues. Now, think about the players that play rogues. Now think about what the general stereotype mentality people associate with a rogue player. People think rogues are rolled because we just want to PEWPEW MOAR PLZ. I hear more people bash on rogue players than any other class for being half brained, dimwitted, or unable to do anything but smash buttons.


In regards to comparing a rogue to a druid with the example of his AP, that just doesn't add up, due to the fact that druids have huge AP amounts to make up for the lack of weapon dps. My druid alt in T4/Kara-ish level gear is rocking 3k AP in kitty gear unbuffed. There is no real way of comparing DPS without seeing the classes in raid situation.

It's true that rogues don't bring a whole lot of anything to raids besides DPS, and I'm fairly certain Blizz knows this and they will continue to be one of the top DPS classes on into WotLK, just give it time.


Run a dps report. 3k ap druid with 9% hit with a good rotation in cat form is going to outperform a rogue with 2k ap and better hit. Rogues have to overcome a HUGE hit rating deficit while cats just have 1.0 speed attacks that have to overcome the same hit rating as a ret pally or MS warrior. The 3k ap druid is also going to have about 10% more crit, and more 'oh poop buttons'

Even if the dps is slightly slanted towards the rogue, why WOULDN"T you want the druid? Especially in progression style content? What can a rogue do if something goes bad on a fight? blind? sure, 10secs..... Evasion tank? another 15.... a druid, is able to pop into DB form and take a couple of hits. if the healer catches on, a DB in cat gear can still tank trash if the poop hits the fan.

I will sum up my point. You will suffer a 'slight' dps decrease in a raid, but end up with more buffs and more control over a bad situation by taking a shaman, druid, mage, or hunter over a rogue.

There isn't a way to currently combat this problem. With the consolidation of buffs/debuffs, the homogenization of gear, and the ability for every other dps class to actively do something besides pound on something, Rogues are on the short end of the stick.
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Postby honorshammer » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:19 am

Too much changing too fast.

Somebody wake me up when this thing goes gold.
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Postby Digren » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:33 am

InspiredOgre wrote:Okay, so, for Clarity....

Attack Power Buff (We Lose)
Battle Shout +550
Talent (5/5 Commanding Presence) +688
Blessing of Might +350
Talent (5/5 Improved Blessing of Might) +525


Blizzard's post clearly states that the top ranks of each of these buffs will provide identical boosts, and even uses Battle Shout and Blessing of Might as the example.

Your numbers as stated will not go live. Either Battle Shout will get a nerf or BoM will get a buff before release. Anyway, if there are sufficient warriors to Battle Shout, then the ret pally can cast BoK, freeing the prot pally to use BoS. If some other spec is missing (like an affliction warlock), then the warrior can use Commanding Shout and the ret pally can use BoM.
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Postby Jessiespano » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:54 am

Don't forget that ret pallies also bring Hand spells and their JoW provides some pretty exceptional mana returns to the raid on top of JotW. The big issue with the JotW change is the paladin's personal regen issues, but I don't think that would be very hard to tune. As it stands, assuming they actually do tune the class, ret paladins still look to be quite desireable. Also, they can easily go 11 into prot to pick up kings if that doesn't go baseline.
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:09 am

3) in raid content, you are going to be able to mix and match to get the buffs without "NEEDING" to bring all the classes. So now, your rogue slots can be taken up by druids, enh shaman, and hunters more readily. By ignoring the high dps class, you will be able to make up the difference by smart stakcing your groups so that you can min max your buffs and your raid never notices the lack of the pure damage class.

This was debunked earlier. The ease of getting every buff type listed is very high. You can get them all using 7-8 slots. This leaves 7-8 slots for your 'dps only' classes. Rogues are not the only "DPS Only" class. Their buffs are just significantly weaker due to other classes.

Now, glyphs will make these changes admittedly more interesting or tolerable. Someone already made the spell damage from blessing of might point. We don't know quite yet if you get the benefit from a glyph if the buff is negated due to overlap, but it's fair to assume it does. So the question becomes:
If a class has all of its buffs covered, are their glyphs strong enough to still consider them even though it's a damage deficiency to bring them instead of another rogue/lock.
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Postby Shoju » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:24 am

Elsie wrote:This was debunked earlier. The ease of getting every buff type listed is very high. You can get them all using 7-8 slots. This leaves 7-8 slots for your 'dps only' classes. Rogues are not the only "DPS Only" class. Their buffs are just significantly weaker due to other classes.


And then it goes back to the argument of why bring a pure damage class when you could bring someone to handle a problem?

Sure, in a perfect raid, you shouldn't have problems, but why not plan for the human error element anyway?

What other pure damage class is there? By pure damage class, I'm talking about not bringing anything else to the raid.

shaman? Even an enhancement shaman brings more to the fight than a rogue.
Druid? Cat druids can pick up adds and go DB if needed, handling more mobs without the fear of dying
Mages? in combat CC. if something bad happens, the mage can CC in combat (takes some talent to pull and CC). AND, (this will sound lame, and that's ok) they bring food, water, and caster buffs
Warlocks? Pet buffs, soulstone, healthstones, debuffs to mobs
Warriors? shouts, tclap, and ability to tank if it goes bad.
DK's? Who knows, but they are supposedly designed to tank in any tree. + ghouls
Ret Pallies? Can heal (kinda) can tank (kinda)
Shadow Priest? can drop Sform and heal,
Hunter? limited aspect for nature resist, exotic pets, traps


Rogues are the only one who can do nothing else in the raid but dps. I'm not talking about getting dodge capped and tanking because that's not "feasible" in normal tanking situations. A rogues functionality is high dps. with appropriate buffs, and the changes to classes, you will be able to get by the loss of some dps to be more on top of the situation.


My main point is, in the current raid situation, and what has been proposed so far, rogues just seem unattractive to bring to a progression based raid group. Sure, I admit, your dps will suffer slightly, but you end up with a group that is more capable of dealing with the unforseen human error / bad pull / random death portion of a raid than by taking rogues.
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