Is this the end of owning Rogues?

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Postby kurros » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:25 pm

This is the sort of buff rogues don't need. While I agree with the majority of balance decisions blizzard has made, I have always seen rogues as overpowered except for a brief time at the end of vanilla wow, before SoS but after the talent updates, which rogue damage wasn't enough to stun lock a player to death. But that didn't last long, they got CoS, and now every rogue gets 2 chances at a stun lock, making it almost impossible to screw up.

It's like rogues are balanced around not having stealth, so in actual play with the advantages of stealth rogues are far stronger than they should be.


Edit: We *never* owned rogues. We could kill a rogue foolish enough to attack us and continue attacking until it died from our damage returns, but it was more of an assisted suicide than anything else. No protection paladin could ever kill a rogue that actually tries to avoid dying, we have no way to prevent them from stunning us and running away, repeatedly if necessary.
Last edited by kurros on Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Re: Is this the end of owning Rogues?

Postby PsiVen » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:27 pm

mandm413 wrote:I must have faced a lot of bad rogues then


Yes, that's basically what we're saying.
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Re: Is this the end of owning Rogues?

Postby mandm413 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:28 pm

PsiVen wrote:
mandm413 wrote:I must have faced a lot of bad rogues then


Yes, that's basically what we're saying.


Good I like bad hunters in the bgs also, keep them coming!!!!!!!!

And thanks for the info, I will know when I find a good one now.
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Re: Is this the end of owning Rogues?

Postby aranil » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:28 pm

Wowhead poster wrote:Yes, clearly a long overdue fix for those ridiculously overpowered prot paladins in PVP. Rogues stupid enough to stand in consecrate and beat on someone with Holy Shield up deserve a chance to win too!


About sums it up
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Re: Is this the end of owning Rogues?

Postby kurros » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:32 pm

The most obvious proof of rogues being overpowered, and blizzard admitting it, is the existence of the "see stealth" items in arena. Blizzard knows that a smart rogue will never die against the majority of classes because of it's get out of jail free cool downs, and by sitting in stealth wiating for them to come back up he can just keep resetting the fight until he gets lucky.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby thegreatheed » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:40 pm

Elsie wrote:
Rogue, obviously, gets the opener.

Sap (if you're spamming consecrate)
Cheap Shot 4s
Kidney shot 5s
Gouge 3s (if needed)
....restealth...
sap 9 seconds
sap 6 seconds
cheap shot 4s
kidney shot 5s
gouge (if needed)
....restealth.... repeat about 5-8 times.



Seriously, how often is a rogue going to land all of those attacks versus a prot paladin with >50% pure avoidance. gouge WILL miss/parry/dodge HALF OF THE TIME. And be blocked at least 20% more.

not to mention bop to remove stuns, bubble to heal/bandage, trinket/etc/etc.

a rogue has to play PERFECTLY to beat a prot paladin. or the paladin has to make mistakes. a paladin of EQUAL skill and gear level will win. they just will.


the only time a rogue has EVER killed me was when i'm <30% health from aoe farming. even then they usually fail.
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Postby Levantine » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:59 pm

Ur dumb
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Postby elson » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:21 am

Fridmarr wrote:Nah, with sprint, clos, blind, vanish, shadowstep, evasion, and a myriad of stuns, a good rogue spec'd for PVP should be able to kite you to a stalemate at worst. A PVP spec'd rogue will have Prep, and that pretty much kills your strategy of essentially beating their cooldowns, they simply have too many since they can reset a bunch of them.


No it doesn't and no it hasn't. I really find all this insisting that I must be facing bad players, getting lucky, speaking from a pure theory standpoint vs experience etc. rather silly. I've been on three different battle groups since TBC started and its the same where ever I go. Really, I just don't think you guys are fully aware of a rogues abilities/limitations and aren't taking advantage of that knowledge.

The prep comment is a perfect example of this. Prep does not finish the cool down on Clos, blind, kidney shot, gouge, and certainly does not reset the pvp trinket. Resetting evasion helps prevent me from maintaining Sov stacks, but the lichen guard is a nice backup to keep dots up.

The myriad of stuns comment is a bit of an overstatement.

Gouge and kidney shot are physical attacks. If the damage from gouge is fully blocked the incapacitate does not land. In addition to this it can be dodged, parried, or it can miss. I don't remember if kidney shot can be blocked, but there is the rest of the combat table to deal with still. While combat rogues can eliminate dodges on their finishing moves, they are already at a large disadvantage to begin with so it won't help them much. That leaves cheap shot as the only stun a rogue will get off on you reliablyprovided you have 100% dodge/miss/parry/block vs a level 70.

Mace stun rogues can use the proc to bypass our defenses and get in other stuns if they are alert, but again combat rogues just lack the pvp tools other specs have.

Fridmarr wrote:All being a dwarf gets you is a one time purge of their poisons. That helped a lot when blind was a poison, but it doesn't make much of a difference now.


Again this is not fully accurate, and the missing details is what makes the difference. In addition to removing all current poisons, stoneform also removes all current bleeds, and makes you immune to all bleeds/poisons for 8 seconds. The armor increase isn't so big here. The removal of bleeds and more importantly the immunity effect is what matters.

I can cancel a garrote + 5 combo point rupture, essentially wasting all the effort/damage taken the rogue just used to put them on me. I can use it to stoneform + drink/eat, increasing the chance a rogue may make a mistake and open with garrote while stoneform is active. Not likely but even experienced pvp'ers can miss details like that at times. I can use it as an anti-kite tool if for some reason blessing of freedom/cleanse is not enough. Depending on the tactics of the rogue I am fighting, stone form is still very useful against rogues despite the change to blind.

Anyways, I'm pretty much done with this. If people want to continue telling themselves they are defenseless have fun with it.
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Postby elson » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:36 am

Levantine wrote:Ur dumb


Take worthless posts like this and put them on the wow forums where they belong.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:33 am

elson wrote:No it doesn't and no it hasn't. I really find all this insisting that I must be facing bad players, getting lucky, speaking from a pure theory standpoint vs experience etc. rather silly. I've been on three different battle groups since TBC started and its the same where ever I go. Really, I just don't think you guys are fully aware of a rogues abilities/limitations and aren't taking advantage of that knowledge.

The prep comment is a perfect example of this. Prep does not finish the cool down on Clos, blind, kidney shot, gouge, and certainly does not reset the pvp trinket. Resetting evasion helps prevent me from maintaining Sov stacks, but the lichen guard is a nice backup to keep dots up.

My knowledge is fine, did I say it reset the cooldown on all of those?

Again this is not fully accurate, and the missing details is what makes the difference. In addition to removing all current poisons, stoneform also removes all current bleeds, and makes you immune to all bleeds/poisons for 8 seconds. The armor increase isn't so big here. The removal of bleeds and more importantly the immunity effect is what matters.

I can cancel a garrote + 5 combo point rupture, essentially wasting all the effort/damage taken the rogue just used to put them on me. I can use it to stoneform + drink/eat, increasing the chance a rogue may make a mistake and open with garrote while stoneform is active. Not likely but even experienced pvp'ers can miss details like that at times. I can use it as an anti-kite tool if for some reason blessing of freedom/cleanse is not enough. Depending on the tactics of the rogue I am fighting, stone form is still very useful against rogues despite the change to blind.

Anyways, I'm pretty much done with this. If people want to continue telling themselves they are defenseless have fun with it.


It's very accurate in context, if a rogue is dotting you up with bleeds and poisons that do damage (really, you fight rogues using a damage poison?) then they can't kite because their dots will break sap and gouge. These are the rogues I'm not talking about.

Lastly, I didn't say we were defenseless I said it's a fight that you can not win because of all the escape moves that a rogue has. A rogue has to be pretty dumb to die to a prot pally since we have no ability to burst them down, they can reset the fight ad nausem or simply run away. They have more cooldowns than we do in the first place, most of them are shorter, and they can reset some of them. A good rogue can reset the fight to continue to gain a bigger and bigger advantage each time.
Last edited by Fridmarr on Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby caboom » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:40 am

Poisons alone are enough to kill any prot pally or prot warrior, in a duel with a rogue, unlike with bears they have an extra stun to interupt our heals with, with a good rogue actually there are no heals, rogues who lose against prot pallies need to reroll or otherwise l2p imho, and no 2k rating does not mean they know how to kill a prot pally, but actually they know how to kill a resto druid, and his felow warrior eyes-closed.
I actually find easier to kill rogues as ret than as prot.

The only class that can destroy rogues absolutely are feral droods, especially tanks, bleeeds > rogue :)
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Postby crabcrouton » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:57 am

I'm not sure why it matters if a PvE-oriented spec loses in PvP.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:10 am

Elsie wrote:Idiot rogues bleed for long durations. Smart rogues will just sap you while his CDs reset and do it all over again. Drinking would get you at max 2 ticks now and then.


Ever been sapped with a bleed effect on? That would be smart..

Honestly, I PvP a lot. Close to 70k Kills, I don't know how many arena games.

I do PvP in Healer S4 with Prot Spec after raids or so. There is no way in hell a rogue can beat you. I have 450 Resilience with 20k Armor and 1,7k Healing. NO WAY.

They can annoy you. But not kill you.

Heck, I can Fraps that stuff when to go 2-3 against 1. Of course with PvE Prot Gear they have a chance. But not against PvP Healer Gear.
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Postby Arsyn » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:49 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:I do PvP in Healer S4 with Prot Spec after raids or so. There is no way in hell a rogue can beat you. I have 450 Resilience with 20k Armor and 1,7k Healing. NO WAY.

They can annoy you. But not kill you.

Heck, I can Fraps that stuff when to go 2-3 against 1. Of course with PvE Prot Gear they have a chance. But not against PvP Healer Gear.


I'd be interested in seeing this actually. I was tempted to try PvP Healing gear with my Maintank spec but wasn't sure if it was worth it. I'm guessing lots and lots of MP/5 as well on the gear? (Thats how I got my PvE Healing gear to a state that makes me a pretty decent non-Holy healer).
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Postby degre » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:52 am

Actually, they're kinda both right.

The point is, in world PvP the Rogue cannot loose to a tankadin, unless he's an idiot. Has far too many way to escape.

However, the fact that he cannot loose doesn't mean that he can win, simply means that he can escape. Forced in a close environment like the arena, where one MUST die, the rogue has either the chance to escape forever and pray that the pally loose by quitting, or he can choose to attack and beat himself to death.
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