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Is this the end of owning Rogues?

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Postby Levantine » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:30 pm

Boldbeard wrote:
Melathys wrote:
Nich wrote:ANy decent rogue should still wipe the floor with a prot pally.


wat


huh? Dont know what haxx server rogues you've been playing against, but it takes a REALLY GOOD rogue in REALLY GOOD gear to beat a prot pally. To give you a comparison, my good friend can barely beat me in my Kara gear. He's an 1800 rogue with S3/S4; my arena is around 1350. I can even bean him occasionally. We only duel for his sake, for the challenge.

OT: But we used to duel back in vanilla and I would beat him wearing only a Helm, Boots, Shield and a grey backpiece. I punched & HS'd him to death...lol.

As far as the shield removal...it's uptime is only ~15%...so meh. Maybe will help them close you out, but if your smart and keep your HP up...he shouldnt be able to stun lock or burst you dead, especially with AD.


Just no. Any decent Rogue will beat a Prot Pally. It'll take forever, and be insanely annoying, but it's easy.
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:36 pm

Levantine wrote:Just no. Any decent Rogue will beat a Prot Pally. It'll take forever, and be insanely annoying, but it's easy.


Or he'll vanish and walk away. It's really only the stupid rogues that we can kill anyway.
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Postby elson » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:03 pm

I've lost to a grand total of two rogues since TBC started This includes rogues who have achieved 2kish arena ratings so they have at least some idea of how to pvp. You have every possible advantage to start with. They have to be very good, and you still have to screw up in order for them to win.

Yes I'm talking about rogues who rupture, stun, run, rupture, stun run, and other sneaky rogue stuff. The rogues who actually play like rogues instead of warriors in leather. As long as you have food/water with you, eventually they run out of tricks and die.

Wrath may give them a fair chance for once with the shield removal thing. Time will tell. As it is now, they are most certainly lower on the food chain.
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Postby Salamandra » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:11 pm

Yeah... I don't remember ever losing to a rogue if there was only one of them. I've even won 2v1. Almost one time 3v1, although they were utterly useless. It's extremely easy for a rogue not to die, but them to actually kill us? It's never happened to me, at least.
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Postby unlimit » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:14 pm

Stun you, Bleed you, and apply poison, then run away.


There is absolutely no reason a rogue can't beat a prot paladin, no matter what any of you say.

Any non-retard understands they can't kill us by beating on us. They'll kill themselves.

If those rogues really got up to 2k+ rating then your battlegroup must be horrible.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:30 pm

Idiot rogues bleed for long durations. Smart rogues will just sap you while his CDs reset and do it all over again. Drinking would get you at max 2 ticks now and then.
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Postby elson » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:43 pm

unlimit wrote:Stun you, Bleed you, and apply poison, then run away.


There is absolutely no reason a rogue can't beat a prot paladin, no matter what any of you say.

Any non-retard understands they can't kill us by beating on us. They'll kill themselves.

If those rogues really got up to 2k+ rating then your battlegroup must be horrible.


Is it really this difficult to understand one of the most imbalanced pvp matches in the game atm? Its just a matter of forcing them to use their cool downs early and leaving them with no way to get out of combat aside from running so far away you can just eat/drink up and restart the whole thing

When fighting you apply either Sov or use sporegarr shield to get dots up and force them to use Clos early if they want to re-stealth.

When they run, you eat/drink. One or two tics is all you need and you will get at least one tic.

Once Clos is used you stun them to force the use of their trinket. Once trinket and Clos are gone the only way they are going to get the ability to re-stealth is by using blind. This assumes you aren't bleeding or otherwise dotted.

Once blind is used thats it, the fight is over unless they sprint which gives you a chance to eat/drink/heal.

Maybe my point if view is somewhat biased being both alliance and a dwarf. I have access to anti rogue tools that some other paladins don't have. Still, the key to beating rogues that run is that they are giving you enough time to heal/eat/drink. If you aren't doing that then of course your going to loose, and deserve to at that.
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Re: Is this the end of owning Rogues?

Postby PsiVen » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:45 pm

No paladin can beat a smart rogue 1 on 1. You can eat all you like, they will do damage far faster and won't be getting blocked.

Arsyn wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=51722

Dismantle, takes away our shield. Perfect for creating an opener to stun us.


This will be nerfed. Holy paladins would have no place in arena whatsoever.
Last edited by PsiVen on Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:51 pm

Getting out of combat is not based on distance, it is based on time. A rogue merely has to deadly throw or crippling poison a prot paladin to get out of combat considering one -one- ranged ability with a 25s CD. Sap is not 0 yards, they don't have to spend any time at all getting back in distance to keep you in combat.

A rogue can widdle a paladin down through a few ticks of HP regen. It makes absolutely 0 difference. You seem to have forgotten vanish, sprint, and blind - not just one of them. Oh, and evasion. Oh, and they can prep their CDs and do it again. The only thing being alliance helps with is making the rogue work a little harder if you happen to even have time to apply a tick of vengeance on him.
There is no way to win unless the rogue screws up.


...anyway. I think this hurts shamans more than paladins. At least a holy paladin can use Divine Shield to remove it. A resto shaman has no outs.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:56 pm

elson wrote:
unlimit wrote:Stun you, Bleed you, and apply poison, then run away.


There is absolutely no reason a rogue can't beat a prot paladin, no matter what any of you say.

Any non-retard understands they can't kill us by beating on us. They'll kill themselves.

If those rogues really got up to 2k+ rating then your battlegroup must be horrible.


Is it really this difficult to understand one of the most imbalanced pvp matches in the game atm? Its just a matter of forcing them to use their cool downs early and leaving them with no way to get out of combat aside from running so far away you can just eat/drink up and restart the whole thing

When fighting you apply either Sov or use sporegarr shield to get dots up and force them to use Clos early if they want to re-stealth.

When they run, you eat/drink. One or two tics is all you need and you will get at least one tic.

Once Clos is used you stun them to force the use of their trinket. Once trinket and Clos are gone the only way they are going to get the ability to re-stealth is by using blind. This assumes you aren't bleeding or otherwise dotted.

Once blind is used thats it, the fight is over unless they sprint which gives you a chance to eat/drink/heal.

Maybe my point if view is somewhat biased being both alliance and a dwarf. I have access to anti rogue tools that some other paladins don't have. Still, the key to beating rogues that run is that they are giving you enough time to heal/eat/drink. If you aren't doing that then of course your going to loose, and deserve to at that.


Nah, with sprint, clos, blind, vanish, shadowstep, evasion, and a myriad of stuns, a good rogue spec'd for PVP should be able to kite you to a stalemate at worst. A PVP spec'd rogue will have Prep, and that pretty much kills your strategy of essentially beating their cooldowns, they simply have too many since they can reset a bunch of them.

All being a dwarf gets you is a one time purge of their poisons. That helped a lot when blind was a poison, but it doesn't make much of a difference now.

Your average everyday rogue, sure you'll beat him like he stole something, but one that knows how to use this strategy against prot specs simply won't lose because he'll always have an escape mechanism.
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Re: Is this the end of owning Rogues?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:15 pm

PsiVen wrote:No paladin can beat a smart rogue 1 on 1. You can eat all you like, they will do damage far faster and won't be getting blocked.

Arsyn wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=51722

Dismantle, takes away our shield. Perfect for creating an opener to stun us.


This will be nerfed. Holy paladins would have no place in arena whatsoever.


As far as I can tell, they still don't, but we'll have to wait and see. I'm not so sure about them nerfing this though. They basically gave them blessing of spellwarding with no attack speed penalty on a one minute cooldown for TBC, plus other stuff. They have some amazing PVP abilities and I don't expect them to discontinue that.
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Re: Is this the end of owning Rogues?

Postby mandm413 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:36 pm

[quote="PsiVen"]No paladin can beat a smart rogue 1 on 1. You can eat all you like, they will do damage far faster and won't be getting blocked.

I must have faced a lot of bad rogues then, they love to eat my hs charges, I stun them early to get them to use the trinket and keep rank 1 consecrate going.

They often give up and run away but I can't remember dieing to a rogue one on one.
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Postby Melathys » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:21 pm

seems like all you paladins dieing to rogues have forgotten how to heal and bandage.

only once have I died 1v1 to a rogue. he had dual glaives, and I didn't bandage or heal or bubble.

you can talk about bleeding and poisoning to death, but you forget that they must hit you to gain combo points for rupture or to apply poisons, and during that time you'll do more damage to them then they to you.

Holy shield
Blessing of Sanctuary
Shield Spike
Sporregar poison stacks

Every shield wearing class should have petrified lichen guard for rogues.

And sprint shouldn't be counted as one of your cooldowns vs paladins. What good is blind if they're trying to dot and kite? Evasion, so what, we don't kill them by hitting them. Gouge..will be blocked and not work. Shadowstep, ok, they get a moment behind you..turn around. It really isn't hard to keep turning so the rogue isn't behind you.

I'd like to see a rogue that can down a prot paladin in the time it takes for cheapshot > kidney shot to wear off. cause those are the only stuns you get vs prot paladin keeping holy shield up.

But basically, what I'm hearing you say... smart rogue >>> dumb prot paladins. orly.

I have 70 paladin and 70 rogue, so I know how both classes work and tricks to try to kill the other. Protection paladin is the rock to rogue's scissors.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:21 pm

And sprint shouldn't be counted as one of your cooldowns vs paladins. What good is blind if they're trying to dot and kite? Evasion, so what, we don't kill them by hitting them. Gouge..will be blocked and not work. Shadowstep, ok, they get a moment behind you..turn around. It really isn't hard to keep turning so the rogue isn't behind you.

I'd like to see a rogue that can down a prot paladin in the time it takes for cheapshot > kidney shot to wear off. cause those are the only stuns you get vs prot paladin keeping holy shield up.

Sigh okay i'll spell it out for you.

Rogue, obviously, gets the opener.

Sap (if you're spamming consecrate)
Cheap Shot 4s
Kidney shot 5s
Gouge 3s (if needed)
....restealth...
sap 9 seconds
sap 6 seconds
cheap shot 4s
kidney shot 5s
gouge (if needed)
....restealth.... repeat about 5-8 times.

Now, you'll cry "Trinket HAMMARRR.' Then the rogue pops his trinket and either uses cloak/vanish or blind. He possibly mocks you with a bandage then repeats the above. Even if you get a second hammer in 60 seconds, a prot paladin wouldn't be able to dps a rogue down.

You'll cry "Avenger's shield!" except he'll just deadly throw and slow you by 50% and you will never catch him.

You'll cry "Diminishing returns!" The rogue will just use his blind and wait for them to reset. Even if you trinket this blind, he can force a reset with deadly throw / evasion.

You'll cry "Divine Shield!" except he can sprint away to restealth giving you at max 3-4 seconds of DS to... drink? and that's assuming he restealths quickly or stays stealth. He could just pop out to dink your shield to and keep you in combat from a safe distance.

You'll cry "Now he's out of CDs!" But a rogue can wait. Almost every rogue CD is lower than Divine Shield and they will be up. Even if they don't wait, prep refreshes all their CDs instantly while you're out.

Any decent rogue can do this. Even though the post above me (who will never full block with a sporregar shield) has some nice ideas, there's just no way not to get kited and stay out of combat for sufficiently long amount of time. It also falls to sync lag problems: it is impossible to keep a rogue solely infront of you and keep him near you.
Last edited by Elsie on Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:22 pm

Melathys wrote:seems like all you paladins dieing to rogues have forgotten how to heal and bandage.

only once have I died 1v1 to a rogue. he had dual glaives, and I didn't bandage or heal or bubble.

you can talk about bleeding and poisoning to death, but you forget that they must hit you to gain combo points for rupture or to apply poisons, and during that time you'll do more damage to them then they to you.

Holy shield
Blessing of Sanctuary
Shield Spike
Sporregar poison stacks

Every shield wearing class should have petrified lichen guard for rogues.

And sprint shouldn't be counted as one of your cooldowns vs paladins. What good is blind if they're trying to dot and kite? Evasion, so what, we don't kill them by hitting them. Gouge..will be blocked and not work. Shadowstep, ok, they get a moment behind you..turn around. It really isn't hard to keep turning so the rogue isn't behind you.

I'd like to see a rogue that can down a prot paladin in the time it takes for cheapshot > kidney shot to wear off. cause those are the only stuns you get vs prot paladin keeping holy shield up.

But basically, what I'm hearing you say... smart rogue >>> dumb prot paladins. orly.

I have 70 paladin and 70 rogue, so I know how both classes work and tricks to try to kill the other. Protection paladin is the rock to rogue's scissors.


Clearly, you haven't fought a good rogue. Something we can both agree on easily is that a Paladin would never beat a rogue, because at the very worst, a rogue could vanish, sprint, etc. away. The Paladin can never "win." Aside from that, I don't really know what to tell you. Good rogues are good, and I've been killed by them. There really isn't much different a Prot Paladin can do, either. Consecrate, Holy Shield, make sure you're facing him, judge, reseal and swing. If you take the time to bandage, then you've taken the time to let him out of combat, which just makes things worse for you.

If I had a mathematical analysis to prove this, I'd give it, but I don't. All I have is my experience and the experience of other posters in this thread. Sure, I can beat the rogues that pop Evasion and think it will save them, but nothing will stop a good rogue from killing you.
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