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On Heroic vs regular level 80 loot

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Tev » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:32 am

Dead Weight was everywhere in 40 man raiding, only less so the closer you got to Naxx because progression guilds would finally learn to recognize those people and cut them.

That said, back on topic;

Heroic loot needs to be better, not just from badge gear, but the actually drops. Additionally there needs to be multiple tiers of heroic dungeons, with better gear progression and difficulty. For instance, the lvl 70~73 dungeons could be Heroic Tier 1, 74~78 dungeons would be heroic Tier 2, and 79+ dungeons would be Heroic Tier 3. Each with progressive difficulty and rewards.

Lets face it, this needs to be done for all aspects of the game, you have so many different forms of progression that it shouldn't be limited to only Raids that have good gear progression while everything else sits and stagnates. Lets see what there is;

Raids (25/10 man)
Heroics/dungeons
Tradeskills
PvP
Questing(and faction grinding)

Of those the only 2 that currently have progressive scaling are Raids (25 man) and PvP. To a lesser extent Bages, but those are more tied in with raiding than heroics (hi hi 23 badges in a khara run). Everything else has minor scaling or no scaling at all. It feels like the game goes dungeons & questing -> Heroics & Tradeskills -> Raids. Every so often there may be quest/heroic/tradeskill updates but they are all tied in or back burner to raids. (PvP can really fit anywhere in there and has its own progression)

Sorry for the tangent but I feel it ties in with Heroic loot quality and progression.

BTW, I've noticed a lot of people who hate the idea of any progression outside of raiding are the same people who never log off, but instead sit in Org/SW/Shatt with all their shiny gear to let everyone else ogle at their e-peen.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:32 am

Sartuk wrote: So while I'm sure you didn't realize it, to me, your comments were also rather personal hits to me.


Saying that a guild that condones/allows/encourages disrespect is a bad guild is in no way a personal attack on you, no matter how you might skew it in order to try to win an argument.

We all agree this is a game. And that real life is more important. So our goal in the game is to enjoy ourselves and have fun. So a group around you that makes you put up with alot of crap (your words) is detrimental to your purpose in spending real life time. Also a group that allows disrespect, or wastes your real life time, would also be counter-productive.

Saying such a group is bad for your enjoyment of the game is never an insult or attack. By your own admission you had to put up with a lot of bad players and situations. Warping it around at me, because you never specified that you changed guilds, doesn't mean I attacked you.

So again, you're devolving the argument to personal terms, please stop.
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Postby Sartuk » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:36 am

thegreatheed wrote:
Sartuk wrote: So while I'm sure you didn't realize it, to me, your comments were also rather personal hits to me.


Saying that a guild that condones/allows/encourages disrespect is a bad guild is in no way a personal attack on you, no matter how you might skew it in order to try to win an argument.

We all agree this is a game. And that real life is more important. So our goal in the game is to enjoy ourselves and have fun. So a group around you that makes you put up with alot of crap (your words) is detrimental to your purpose in spending real life time. Also a group that allows disrespect, or wastes your real life time, would also be counter-productive.

Saying such a group is bad for your enjoyment of the game is never an insult or attack. By your own admission you had to put up with a lot of bad players and situations. Warping it around at me, because you never specified that you changed guilds, doesn't mean I attacked you.

So again, you're devolving the argument to personal terms, please stop.


I'm not devolving this to anything personal at all, that is not my attempt. The fact is, we HAD to carry dead weight because that was the only way we could field 40 people. And, yes, someone who doesn't carry their own weight is typically still better than no one at all. If it meant not doing a BWL run at all, or doing a BWL run with, let's say 10-15 people who obviously weren't up to where they should be, I'd go for actually doing BWL any day of the week. The fact is, most guilds HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO BRING ALONG SLACKERS. It was either that, or not raid. I don't consider any of my guilds bad because we took the necessary of two evils.

For what it's worth, I learned long ago that there is no "winning" of any argument, specifically ones online. I'm sure everything I've said has had no affect on you whatsoever, and that's pretty expected of a forum debate.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:46 am

Tev wrote:
Sorry for the tangent but I feel it ties in with Heroic loot quality and progression.

BTW, I've noticed a lot of people who hate the idea of any progression outside of raiding are the same people who never log off, but instead sit in Org/SW/Shatt with all their shiny gear to let everyone else ogle at their e-peen.


It's not a tangent, loot availability/raid progression are definitely one and the same.


I'm definitely a raider, but I don't "hate the idea of any progression outside of raiding".

1. I made a main switch when our guild was finishing ssc/tk. It was sure easier to equip my tankadin in badge gear/kara gear, than it was to raid ssc/tk for weeks.
2. I have alts :P

But my main concern is gameplay. I play wow in order to raid. New content and cooperative gameplay is what I enjoy. It's not what everyone enjoys, and thus the large raids are definitely harder to fill than a 2v2 team. Since its hard to find enough good dedicated people to not waste my time (no deadweight) most guilds fill the ranks with whoever. These people usually play for loot or epeen, and are the "deadweight" I speak of.

If there is ultimately equal progression in 10 mans, or heroic 5 mans, there simply won't be enough players to fill the ranks of the raids that many raiders wish to do. This is why I'm concerned about my GAMEPLAY, not my loot. If the loot is obtained elsewhere, more easily, then there's a good percentage who will go another direction. And I don't play this game for loots, I play for fun. (though the loots are a nice perk)

In another post, someone else posted how this game is slowly changing into D2. I might have to agree.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:48 am

Sartuk wrote:
For what it's worth, I learned long ago that there is no "winning" of any argument, specifically ones online. I'm sure everything I've said has had no affect on you whatsoever, and that's pretty expected of a forum debate.


And now you turn back to the matter at hand, after I point out the fallacy of the personal stuff :P

/wink
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Postby Sartuk » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:52 am

thegreatheed wrote:
Sartuk wrote:
For what it's worth, I learned long ago that there is no "winning" of any argument, specifically ones online. I'm sure everything I've said has had no affect on you whatsoever, and that's pretty expected of a forum debate.


And now you turn back to the matter at hand, after I point out the fallacy of the personal stuff :P

/wink


Honestly, I think a lot of the problem comes down to what our different ideas of "dead weight" are. Not to mention the fact that our experiences have been entirely different: you managed to get into a guild that had 40 dedicated people who were all good. I'm freaking jealous of you, man! Would've made my time in Vanilla WoW (on the raiding spectrum) a little bit better!

On the flipside, you don't know what it's like to have to deal with 10 or so people every raid who fit my definition of dead weight. You don't know what it's like to have NO CHOICE but to raid with these people. You grow used to it, I suppose, but yeah, it sucks.

Either way, I can't help but agree with the whole Diablo 2 comparison. It's actually eerily similar.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:03 pm

I agree with this. Karazhan gear should have been blue, and Naxx10 gear probably should be, too. Really, anything puggable should be blue.


Things that should drop only blue loot on Proudmoore:

Gruul's Lair
Magtheridon
1/4 TK
at least 2/6 SSC
at least 2/5 Hyjal
3/9 BT
Sunwell Trash

:P
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Postby scritti » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:21 pm

Long time reader, first time poster.

This is certainly a hot button topic everywhere. I guess my main problem with people who say that 10 man raiding progression will hurt the 25 man is their reasoning.

The argument is basically if we don't force people into 25 mans for gear, no one will want to do them. Shouldn't want to raid with people who actually WANT to be in the raid not people that have no other option for gear?

I am all for options. I have raided 25 man on my priest and 10 man on my pally tank. I prefer the 10 man. The chances of an asshat is lessened with the 10 man.

That being said I fully support the idea of the 25 man instances getting slightly better gear.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:41 pm

scritti wrote:Long time reader, first time poster.

This is certainly a hot button topic everywhere. I guess my main problem with people who say that 10 man raiding progression will hurt the 25 man is their reasoning.

The argument is basically if we don't force people into 25 mans for gear, no one will want to do them. Shouldn't want to raid with people who actually WANT to be in the raid not people that have no other option for gear?

I am all for options. I have raided 25 man on my priest and 10 man on my pally tank. I prefer the 10 man. The chances of an asshat is lessened with the 10 man.

That being said I fully support the idea of the 25 man instances getting slightly better gear.


Actually, my argument is that I enjoy the current gameplay. And I'm afraid of changes that might impact that gameplay. And for "casuals" to come and say, "I don't like that gameplay, make me something else, just as good" threatens the existing gameplay I enjoy (speculation of course). Notoriously forums are full of whiners, so the official forums are full of people dissatisfied with the current gameplay. I think that the now almost 11 million subscribers should show how childish and selfish they are crying for new this and that, when MILLIONS of other players enjoy it just fine.

That said, I'm not calling you a whiner or anything, please don't take this as directed to you, i'm just using the standard stereotypes.

Also, the ratio of idiots to good players doesn't change in 10 man instances. They're still out there.. in ur instancez, stealin ur lootz.

But I will agree that options are indeed shiny and seem very good. Again, I'm just worried about how more options will detract from something that I enjoy.

And my reasoning isn't that I want to force anyone to do the thing I like. But if a much smaller percentage of players raids, how often do you think Blizzard will release new instances? There's simply a smaller window of opportunity if it's not the "best" way to progress. I would say there's a substantial portion of players who'll engage any route if it's the "best" route. Honestly there's probably plenty of folks out there now who enjoy large raids right now, they've certainly driven Blizzard to release ssc/tk -> mh/bt -> sunwell during this expansion cycle, maybe I shouldn't worry, but I still do.
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Postby Tev » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:52 pm

Its a good point actually, if you have to force people to raid to get upgrades, do you really want them along? Raiding should be fun for the sake of FUN. If people can only get upgrades from raiding, guess what, no matter how much they don't like raiding, how much they suck at it, they will raid because they want upgrades.

I would rather have people who want to raid be the ones who raid, and the people who want only loot can go somewhere else.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:00 pm

Tev wrote:Its a good point actually, if you have to force people to raid to get upgrades, do you really want them along? Raiding should be fun for the sake of FUN. If people can only get upgrades from raiding, guess what, no matter how much they don't like raiding, how much they suck at it, they will raid because they want upgrades.

I would rather have people who want to raid be the ones who raid, and the people who want only loot can go somewhere else.


Oh I definitely agree.

And I've surrounded myself with lots of folks who raid in order to raid. We use dkp, yet very often have people pass to others who'd receive a bigger upgrade. Everyone is more than willing to use consumables and spec "pve". It's much more fun when your guild is united behind a common goal. But whether or not my guild is awesomesauce, doesn't mean that fewer raiders overall will mean fewer raiding opportunities. And thus I'd be INSANE to not argue FOR raiding, because of course I want to argue for what I enjoy.

Also, changing the "focus" of a game mid-stream will tend to alienate those who enjoyed the previous focus, amirite? I'll admit, that the new system MAY or may NOT be better, that can only be seen as the human element is added into the game.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:03 pm

thegreatheed wrote:
Tev wrote:Its a good point actually, if you have to force people to raid to get upgrades, do you really want them along? Raiding should be fun for the sake of FUN. If people can only get upgrades from raiding, guess what, no matter how much they don't like raiding, how much they suck at it, they will raid because they want upgrades.

I would rather have people who want to raid be the ones who raid, and the people who want only loot can go somewhere else.


Oh I definitely agree.

And I've surrounded myself with lots of folks who raid in order to raid. We use dkp, yet very often have people pass to others who'd receive a bigger upgrade. Everyone is more than willing to use consumables and spec "pve". It's much more fun when your guild is united behind a common goal. But whether or not my guild is awesomesauce, doesn't mean that fewer raiders overall will mean fewer raiding opportunities. And thus I'd be INSANE to not argue FOR raiding, because of course I want to argue for what I enjoy.

Also, changing the "focus" of a game mid-stream will tend to alienate those who enjoyed the previous focus, amirite? I'll admit, that the new system MAY or may NOT be better, that can only be seen as the human element is added into the game.


I must've missed the part where 25 man raiding is no longer a big part of WotLK....all they're doing is providing more options for people who don't want to do 25 mans raids while continuing the 25 man raid progression that existed in TBC....who loses here?
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:07 pm

Dorvan wrote:
I must've missed the part where 25 man raiding is no longer a big part of WotLK....all they're doing is providing more options for people who don't want to do 25 mans raids while continuing the 25 man raid progression that existed in TBC....who loses here?


Of course 25man is a big part, but its suffered some pains, due to easily obtainable geared acquired from other sources. Expanding those alternate means to progression may hurt or may help. I don't pretend to see the future, just expression concerns I have and a pattern I seem to see.
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Postby Chunes » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:07 pm

My guild stands to lose in this scenario. Well actually the 5-8 "hardcore" raiders stand to lose out as the majority of my guild will be content to farm 10mans rather than stepping up as a whole to 25man content.

"get a new guild then" blah blah yeah i just might, but that will not change the fact that i will no longer be raiding with a group of people that i have greatly come to like if this is indeed the case.

people in my position stand to lose a little with the "lets please everyone" approach bliz is taking," but we all still stand to gain a little. It's give and take really.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:13 pm

....but if the 17-20 people would rather be raiding 10 mans than 25 mans, aren't they a lot happier with the change vs. 5-8 of you that like the current system?

That's the thing with this argument, it comes down to "I don't like Blizzard adding this other playstyle choice because then people won't be forced into a playstyle they don't like as much to support my preference". Also, if this is a common phenomena, there will be other groups of 5-8 people out there looking for a 25 man guild and a stronger guild will emerge because of it full of people who actually *want* to be there, so in the long run even the "hardcore 25 man" people benefit.

And finally, it's naive to think that there wouldn't be significant shake ups in the guild roster even without 10 mans becoming more prominent. Expansions are a good time to take inventory: people decide to leave the game, or go for a more casual guild, or a more hardcore guild....a lot of reshuffling happens of the server, and ultimately people are in places that better match where they and the guild and now instead of where they were 18 months ago. It's a healthy process.

Of course 25man is a big part, but its suffered some pains, due to easily obtainable geared acquired from other sources. Expanding those alternate means to progression may hurt or may help. I don't pretend to see the future, just expression concerns I have and a pattern I seem to see.


As the first part of my post indicates, removing people who don't care about 25 man raiding and only want loot is really a good thing for those who like 25 man raiding in the long run, I'm not sure how one would see it otherwise.
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