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On Heroic vs regular level 80 loot

All things related to the expansion

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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:36 am

Dang, there was a Druid in one of my old guilds who had a funny set he'd link. It was a PvP epic healing offhand or idol or something, and a green BoE with similar stats. The only difference was the resilience, and the BoE green beat it otherwise. Stuff like that is just silly.
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Postby Norfolk » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:40 am

Everything past the 6th post in this thread belongs in a new rant thread in the general forum or just needs to be deleted. It has absolutely no relevance to the topic or to WotLK.

Can we please get back on topic?
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Postby Karock » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:40 am

thegreatheed wrote:Detractors ALWAYS say that raids such as Molten Core allowed you to bring 10-15 slackers, and still accomplish something. THIS IS NOT TRUE. If you are attacking a Boss, with gear appropriate to the content, most every boss is very challenging, with 40 active, engaged, participating raid members. There is no room for "dead weight" in a progression kill.


Hey there dude, I went all the way into the start of naxx where, shortly after it released and we had downed two bosses, I quit the game. You thinking there was no dead weight in your Molten Core raid let alone Black Wing Lair raid is laughable.
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Postby Sartuk » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:55 am

Karock, you're dead on. I pretty much quit raiding at about the same point of progression you quit the game. Dead weight of at LEAST 5+ players occurred in 99% of guilds that did MC and BWL for the sole reason that encounter design allowed that to happen. As long as half the raid knew what the heck they were doing, and the other half wasn't omgterribad (IE, blowing everyone up as a the living bomb, etc.) that not as good half could easily coast through, even on progression kills.

That's one of the many things that turned me off from raiding, and still turns me off a bit now. There was PLENTY of room for dead weight in the 40 mans of pre-TBC, and from what I've heard, there's still room for dead weight now, although not to the same extent as a place like MC or BWL.

And, more to the point of this threads original intention, I'd be very happy if heroics had better overall loot. Right now, heroics are simply badge runs, and I really hate that. From what I've heard, Blizzard is certainly trying to fix that up a bit, and this is certainly a good first step.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:22 am

Karock wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:Detractors ALWAYS say that raids such as Molten Core allowed you to bring 10-15 slackers, and still accomplish something. THIS IS NOT TRUE. If you are attacking a Boss, with gear appropriate to the content, most every boss is very challenging, with 40 active, engaged, participating raid members. There is no room for "dead weight" in a progression kill.


Hey there dude, I went all the way into the start of naxx where, shortly after it released and we had downed two bosses, I quit the game. You thinking there was no dead weight in your Molten Core raid let alone Black Wing Lair raid is laughable.


Then your MC/BWL raids were not the same as mine. I was involved in leading those raids, balancing them, and developing our strategies that cleared them. These weren't farm runs, these weren't alt runs. My whole post talked about progression kills, yet you completely circled the issue.

My raiding guild isn't like "most" raiding guilds. We don't raid 4-6 nights a week for 5-6 hours. We raid a strict 3 nights a week, for a strict 4 hours. We have dedicated, mature players, most with families or school or lives, that want to enjoy the content without the morons in most raiding guilds.

Your experience doesn't devalue mine. Maybe you did drag through 10 slackers, we didn't. And we probably did it with lower gear level than you did. Then, you just took my point, and said it was laughable, when I had countered with specifics and experience.

Please take this type of "debate" back to the general forums.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:27 am

Sartuk wrote:Karock, you're dead on. I pretty much quit raiding at about the same point of progression you quit the game. Dead weight of at LEAST 5+ players occurred in 99% of guilds that did MC and BWL for the sole reason that encounter design allowed that to happen. As long as half the raid knew what the heck they were doing, and the other half wasn't omgterribad (IE, blowing everyone up as a the living bomb, etc.) that not as good half could easily coast through, even on progression kills.

That's one of the many things that turned me off from raiding, and still turns me off a bit now. There was PLENTY of room for dead weight in the 40 mans of pre-TBC, and from what I've heard, there's still room for dead weight now, although not to the same extent as a place like MC or BWL.

And, more to the point of this threads original intention, I'd be very happy if heroics had better overall loot. Right now, heroics are simply badge runs, and I really hate that. From what I've heard, Blizzard is certainly trying to fix that up a bit, and this is certainly a good first step.


Sounds like you also need a new guild.

Here's an example of what we accomplish on a strict 3 night x 4 hour a week schedule.


This week, we killed Kalecgos, Brutallus, and a first time kill of Felmyst. Then in the remaining time, learned Twins fight and got a 38% attempt on the 2nd twin attempt. Almost 2 new sunwell boss kills, in a 12 hour (consecutive game time) period.

Sure there's room for dead weight.. when you allow it. But that's just a bad idea.
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Postby Gimorth » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:28 am

The big problem is not with the color of the loot. It's something more fundamental than that. The problem is that, no matter how you choose to play the game, whether it be PvP, raiding, 10-manning, 5-manning, you get "better" through the same combination of stats. Thus, no matter what blizzard does to balances the itemization, there is always going to be the issue that "In order to get the best gear to do X, I have to do Y and I really don't want to. OR- I did X to get item Z, but some other guy did Y and also got item Z."

Slice it anyway you like, and that's where you end up. The real solution is not found only in drops and itemization. The real solution is found in game design. Unfortunately, Blizzard kind of half tried that before and failed.

Back in the MC days, "raid" gear for many classes was a combination of "want" stats (+dmg, +crit, etc) and "need" stats (+spirit, +resistance, +stam). Once people really started to sit down with the numbers, though, we started to realize that if you built up enough of the stats you actually wanted, you didn't really need as much of the stats that blizzard thought that you needed. My mage, for example, almost completely ignored resist gear, spirit gear and stamina gear for MOAR DAMAGE. Turns out that instead of getting owned by raid bosses, the fights just went by faster and it made everyone's life easier by ignoring the stats Blizz insisted we needed.

Instead of trying to continue to force us to need stats we didn't want, Blizzard caved, and that's where we are now. Regardless of what you do in the game, you want what you need and you need the same stuff.

The solution, of course, would be to have different aspects of the game recquire focus on different stats. That way, all the wonderful +dmg epics you picked up in Heroic Dungeon A would do you no good in Raid Z because you just don't have the spirit to keep up. And vice versa, Raider B wouldn't be able to waltz into 5-Man X because, sure, he'll never run out of mana, but he just doesn't have the requisite burst damage output.

Sadly, it ain't happening. We're destined to all want the same stats, so we're destined to continue to live this cycle of wanting your gear, while you lament our gear. (And it doesn't mattter how you define "you" or "us" or "them," it still holds true in today's game.)
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Postby Sartuk » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:37 am

thegreatheed wrote:
Sartuk wrote:Karock, you're dead on. I pretty much quit raiding at about the same point of progression you quit the game. Dead weight of at LEAST 5+ players occurred in 99% of guilds that did MC and BWL for the sole reason that encounter design allowed that to happen. As long as half the raid knew what the heck they were doing, and the other half wasn't omgterribad (IE, blowing everyone up as a the living bomb, etc.) that not as good half could easily coast through, even on progression kills.

That's one of the many things that turned me off from raiding, and still turns me off a bit now. There was PLENTY of room for dead weight in the 40 mans of pre-TBC, and from what I've heard, there's still room for dead weight now, although not to the same extent as a place like MC or BWL.

And, more to the point of this threads original intention, I'd be very happy if heroics had better overall loot. Right now, heroics are simply badge runs, and I really hate that. From what I've heard, Blizzard is certainly trying to fix that up a bit, and this is certainly a good first step.


Sounds like you also need a new guild.

Here's an example of what we accomplish on a strict 3 night x 4 hour a week schedule.


This week, we killed Kalecgos, Brutallus, and a first time kill of Felmyst. Then in the remaining time, learned Twins fight and got a 38% attempt on the 2nd twin attempt. Almost 2 new sunwell boss kills, in a 12 hour (consecutive game time) period.

Sure there's room for dead weight.. when you allow it. But that's just a bad idea.


Mind you, I haven't raided post-TBC at all, really, save for a couple PuG runs, so your comment about me needing a new guild is quite out of line.

Hey man, it's quite possible that you had one of the 1% of guilds pre-TBC that had little to no dead weight in it at all. I don't know you, I don't know your guild, nor do I really care all that much. The point remains that ESPECIALLY PRE-TBC, you could *easily* do progression attempts and kills, and even progress quite fast, despite having a lot of dead weight in the raid.

I realize you're proud of what your guild has done, that's ever-so apparent. I'm not trying to take a knock at you or your guild, so don't get all "Dead weight? UNPOSSIBLE, I LEAD WITH AN IRON FIST AND DEAD WEIGHT IS NOTHING BUT A MYTH!" on me. I can tell ya for certain that MOST EVERY GUILD PRE-TBC DID HAVE QUITE A FEW SLACKERS, even if the raid leader didn't always notice them. Did I ever say anything SPECIFICALLY about YOUR guild having those slackers? No. As I said, I don't know your guild. If you guys managed to have absolutely no dead weight, congrats. Most guild's never had the luxury of having that many dedicated players. You could attribute it to your superior leadership, but I'm sure a lot of it simply boils down to luck. I never had the luck of being able to be in a guild that consistently had 40 people who were all excellent raiders show up every raid. Very few people have the luxury of being in a guild like that. From the sound of it, you're a very lucky man, and should be thanking the heavens you never had to deal with the shit that most of us did.

As for your TBC progression, congrats, but it means absolutely nothing to me. I already said that I haven't really raided at all in the TBC. I guess you can have a cookie if you want, but you're not impressing me about stuff I couldn't care less about. /shrug
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:38 am

And to followup on my comment about dead weight..

I said, sure there's room for dead weight.. if you allow it. That's my issue with some of the changes to "welfare gear". It's hard to determine if a player is dead weight or not. I don't have time to bring dead weight to my raid. And I no longer have a good way to determine how experienced is a player.

Maybe its a good player, who wanted the fast track, because they have a life. This is the type of player I'd want in my guild.

Maybe its a bad player, who chose the fast track, because they can't stay in a raiding guild due to immaturity and lack of dedication.

No longer does the superficial spot gear of gear hold any value. Not that it was a good check previously, but it at least had SOME value. Now it has none.

And no, my guild isn't "hardcore" vanifae. I never made my post about hardcore vs. casual. My post was about why casual gear impacts raiding, apart from strict ilvl gear arguments. My guild is "content driven". We raid to see the content, to enjoy the new fights. To conquer united, and stuff. When "alternate paths to progression" threaten my gameplay experience, yes I'm afraid.
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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:44 am

moduspwnens wrote:Dang, there was a Druid in one of my old guilds who had a funny set he'd link. It was a PvP epic healing offhand or idol or something, and a green BoE with similar stats. The only difference was the resilience, and the BoE green beat it otherwise. Stuff like that is just silly.

Why is that silly? If I walk into a PvP situation, I wouldn't want the green item; I'd want the epic item. It's a better quality, better itemized and higher survivability piece for the job, which is to survive healer focus firing. Resilience is the primary stat on that epic.

To ignore the resilience would be the same as ignoring the spell damage on this example. Compare this 168 +healing epic: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23554 To this 179 +healing green:http://www.wowhead.com/?item=25323
As long as you don't have a use for the spelldamage part of the epic, it's clearly not as good as the green, for sure. But as soon as you do need it, there's a chasm of difference.

I'm not sure why this thread devolved into this kind of discussion when it was originally meant to inform people to WotLK's paradigm shift. Previously, Heroics could be easier than Kara or just as difficult but the rewards from them never justified the effort.

Now, Heroics are being positioned between regular 80 instances and Naxx in terms of difficulty and item quality. This is going to create more effective content and a bigger pool of gear from which raiders can start Naxx with, without having to rely exclusively on badge gear. This wasn't true in BC.

Another difference is the focus of the items. Take a look at the nonheroic gear and you'll see more universal stats accentuated while niche stats are downplayed. The nonheroic cape in particular has upgraded armor (a stat useful to all tanks) and a small amount of Def (which is less useful for DKs and Druids), whereas the heroic cape has twice the Def at the cost of armor.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Druid/DK-friendly heroic cape somewhere else. In actuality, this makes sense. At level 80, there are only a few instances on regular mode. However every instance from 71 to 80 will have a heroic mode. allowing for a larger pool of gear. This translates into an opportunity for more specialized gear.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:58 am

Sartuk wrote:
Mind you, I haven't raided post-TBC at all, really, save for a couple PuG runs, so your comment about me needing a new guild is quite out of line.


How is saying your guild's priorities are bad when they allow dead weight "out of line"?

If your guildies have so little respect for how they impact YOUR playtime, you do indeed need a new guild.
Hey man, it's quite possible that you had one of the 1% of guilds pre-TBC that had little to no dead weight in it at all. I don't know you, I don't know your guild, nor do I really care all that much.
you says it's possible, yet disclaim my point at the same time. Either it's possible or not.
The point remains that ESPECIALLY PRE-TBC, you could *easily* do progression attempts and kills, and even progress quite fast, despite having a lot of dead weight in the raid.
This statement doesn't make any sense, mathamatically.

Blizzard balances A encounter around having B gear. B gear is obtained in A-1 raid instance. I highly doubt you had instance appropriate gear, "lots" of dead weight, and "easy" attempts, all at the same time.
I realize you're proud of what your guild has done, that's ever-so apparent. I'm not trying to take a knock at you or your guild, so don't get all "Dead weight? UNPOSSIBLE, I LEAD WITH AN IRON FIST AND DEAD WEIGHT IS NOTHING BUT A MYTH!" on me. I can tell ya for certain that MOST EVERY GUILD PRE-TBC DID HAVE QUITE A FEW SLACKERS, even if the raid leader didn't always notice them. Did I ever say anything SPECIFICALLY about YOUR guild having those slackers? No. As I said, I don't know your guild. If you guys managed to have absolutely no dead weight, congrats. Most guild's never had the luxury of having that many dedicated players. You could attribute it to your superior leadership, but I'm sure a lot of it simply boils down to luck. I never had the luck of being able to be in a guild that consistently had 40 people who were all excellent raiders show up every raid. Very few people have the luxury of being in a guild like that. From the sound of it, you're a very lucky man, and should be thanking the heavens you never had to deal with the shit that most of us did.

First off, I'm not the guild leader, but I am an officer. And yes, I hope my attempts at respect, fairness, and dedication have shaped my guild for the better.

A boss requires X tanking, Y dps, and Z heals. Those numbers are determined by blizzard of course, and balanced for the gear at hand. Higher level gear on certain players allows for more slackers. Content appropriate gear allows for fewer slackers. Those last 2 sentences are indisputable, imo.

This I hope, illustrates my point on "welfare" gear. When a raid group conquers an instance in content appropriate gear, we'll all agree it allows for MINIMAL (whatever that means to you) amounts of slacking. Allowing gear acquisition outside of this path, while beneficial to other aspects of the game, can be detrimental to the raiding aspect. Allowing "slacking" through higher than intended gear level.


We've all seen the pattern on our servers, of new "raiding guilds" popping up. They blaze through SSC/TK/MH, probably because of the high quality of gear, easily obtained my many. Then when fights really get difficult, BT, and Sunwell, a great majority of these guilds stall, break apart, or go down in flames. Why?? Well, in my probably skewed experience, because these players don't have the dedication/skill/anti-slacking skill ( or whatever you want to call it) to continue progress.

Now is this good or bad? Well, those players got to see some content, get a few more shinies, then probably left with a bad taste in their mouth for raiding. Does this hurt the game, or help the game?? Well, that's the core debate here, isn't it?
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:14 am

And in a different post, so as to not detract from my point, let me point at the number of PERSONAL attacks you used in your reply to me, Sartuk

nor do I really care all that much

I realize you're proud of what your guild has done, that's ever-so apparent.

You could attribute it to your superior leadership, but I'm sure a lot of it simply boils down to luck


Now, it doesn't personally bother me, as you can notice by my impersonal response. But I really don't like to see these forums degrading to the general forums.

Can you please leave the personal stuff out next time?
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Postby Sartuk » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:16 am

Because I was talking about my guild(s) pre-TBC. My guild now has nothing to do with what I was talking about, and thus your comments about my *current* guild have no bearing on, well, anything.

I never said (at least I never meant to say) that it was IMPOSSIBLE to have 0 dead weight. I said it was very, very, very unlikely, and that most guilds simply don't have the LUXURY of being able to run with no dead weight.

My statement makes perfect since. I said you could easily do them, not that you could do them EASILY. A bit confusing of a word choice, I admit, but I think it makes sense nonetheless.

I agree the closer your gear is to the encounter at hand, the less slacking that can happen. Absolutely. But with 40 people being brought to an encounter in pre-TBC, no matter how bad your gear was (to an extent, of course), you could STILL do progression attempts/kills in MC with almost half the raid being classified as dead weight.

For your sake, I'm glad you never had to deal with that. My point, though, is that your situation was the exception to what happened to 99% of guilds pre-TBC. And while I'm sure you and your other officers leadership helped, what I'm trying to get at is that most guilds never had the luxury to be in your position. I'm not trying to demean or diminish what you did; it's impressive, I'm sure. But most guilds never had the numbers to get 40 solid, excellent raiders together day in and day out. That just wasn't realistic for most guilds.

Post-TBC, I'm sure that's changed. Getting 25 of those people together would seem to be a lot easier.

Heed: for what it's worth, I never meant to really get personal. Me not caring isn't a personal hit on you, and you being proud of your accomplishments should be expected; I would be, too. I took some offense, however, to you implying that any guild that had any dead weight in it was a "bad" guild. I've loved most of the guilds I've been in, and they've been great guilds. We simply didn't have the numbers to not have dead weight. So while I'm sure you didn't realize it, to me, your comments were also rather personal hits to me.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:24 am

Sartuk wrote:
My statement makes perfect since. I said you could easily do them, not that you could do them EASILY. A bit confusing of a word choice, I admit, but I think it makes sense nonetheless.

I agree the closer your gear is to the encounter at hand, the less slacking that can happen. Absolutely. But with 40 people being brought to an encounter in pre-TBC, no matter how bad your gear was (to an extent, of course), you could STILL do progression attempts/kills in MC with almost half the raid being classified as dead weight.



And this is where I think you're completely wrong.

Maybe you classify dead weight differently that I do. But honestly, take a 20 man raid in anything less than T2 at 60 was a recipe for disaster. And taking a 20 man raid into MC in BLUES was impossible. Thus, there was definitely NOT room for 20 dead weight in MC, in content appropriate gear.
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Postby Sartuk » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:26 am

thegreatheed wrote:
Sartuk wrote:
My statement makes perfect since. I said you could easily do them, not that you could do them EASILY. A bit confusing of a word choice, I admit, but I think it makes sense nonetheless.

I agree the closer your gear is to the encounter at hand, the less slacking that can happen. Absolutely. But with 40 people being brought to an encounter in pre-TBC, no matter how bad your gear was (to an extent, of course), you could STILL do progression attempts/kills in MC with almost half the raid being classified as dead weight.



And this is where I think you're completely wrong.

Maybe you classify dead weight differently that I do. But honestly, take a 20 man raid in anything less than T2 at 60 was a recipe for disaster. And taking a 20 man raid into MC in BLUES was impossible. Thus, there was definitely NOT room for 20 dead weight in MC, in content appropriate gear.


Maybe our definitions of dead weight do differ a bit. I'm not saying someone who's dead weight does absolutely nothing. I'm getting at the fact that they SIGNIFICANTLY slack off on what they should be doing, and do not carry their own weight. It's not that they're utterly useless, but just that they're not as useful as they should be all things considered.

Regardless, I apologize if anything I said seemed like a personal hit on you. Not my intention at all, although it certainly came out that way.
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