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On Heroic vs regular level 80 loot

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Postby halabar » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:16 am

Vanifae wrote:It's a game; people deserve to be rewarded, this isn't a competition unless you make it so. At the end of the day blue or purple it is a reward for your time spent. It makes me sad when I see posts like this crying about how someone got something easy, who cares in no way should it ruin "your" experience with the game and if it does then you have issues far larger then the game.

It's nice to be first but at the end of the day people need some kind of carrot to keep them going.


Thank you for some sanity here.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:16 am

I could agree to that but the colors do give the normal player a general frame of reference that a given item is more powerful at first glance, which it may or may not be. I think this makes the game more approachable and obfuscating power through sheer iLVL would be confusing to many players who don't theory craft or understand deep mechanics of the game.
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Postby halabar » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:20 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Vanifae wrote:I do not think we should go to the extreme and have people getting end game drops for nothing, and with the fixes to Arena or perhaps band aids that is somewhat improving but still the issue will persist. When you give people options they will probably take the path of least resistance. That is human nature and I can't change that. But the fact that the choice exists is an improvement over what came before.


Well then in this case we've come to somewhat of an agreement: that there is a line. We just disagree on where that line is. I can accept that.


And that line needs to be drawn on time spent in game, vs the amount of gold you can buy.
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Postby Norrath » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:22 am

halabar wrote:I think they should get rid of colors entirely. Just use the damn ilvl.


They can't. The color is more than an indication of what ilevel it is. It indicates quality.

There are ilevel 115 epics as well as ilevel 115 blues. They would have to completely overhaul the itemization system (which means redoing thousands upon thousands of items) in order to move to a pure ilevel based system.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:24 am

Norrath wrote:
halabar wrote:I think they should get rid of colors entirely. Just use the damn ilvl.


They can't. The color is more than an indication of what ilevel it is. It indicates quality.

There are ilevel 115 epics as well as ilevel 115 blues. They would have to completely overhaul the itemization system (which means redoing thousands upon thousands of items) in order to move to a pure ilevel based system.

This is true as well the system is actually pretty well done, the main problem is that once you get past dungeon blues everything is epic and I guess for some this makes them upset because they feel that epics should be allowed only for a select few.

I do not agree. Obviously Blizzard does not agree either.
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Postby halabar » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:27 am

Vanifae wrote:I could agree to that but the colors do give the normal player a general frame of reference that a given item is more powerful at first glance, which it may or may not be. I think this makes the game more approachable and obfuscating power through sheer iLVL would be confusing to many players who don't theory craft or understand deep mechanics of the game.


True, but the whole color thing has been broken for a long time, and as long as their are new levels, it will create more problems.

Frankly, I think the colors should indicate the quality of the gear at that lvl. Let's say a lvl 60 green weapon has a budget of 100 points. A blue version should have a budget of 115, and a purple a budget of 130. That would make it clear what an item is, but would require Blizz to actually itemize well.
:roll:

But the whole rare/epic thing has been broken for a long time anyway...
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Postby halabar » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:31 am

Norrath wrote:
halabar wrote:I think they should get rid of colors entirely. Just use the damn ilvl.


They can't. The color is more than an indication of what ilevel it is. It indicates quality.

There are ilevel 115 epics as well as ilevel 115 blues. They would have to completely overhaul the itemization system (which means redoing thousands upon thousands of items) in order to move to a pure ilevel based system.


No, it's supposed to indicate rarity, if you read what Blizz says, but I agree that it SHOULD indicate quality...

(It actually does to some degree, but it's not consistent, and is pretty broken at lvl 70).

As I said in the other post, it requires Blizz to actually itemize well. There are too many useless purples out there...
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:31 am

The problem is as soon as Molten Core was available and massive amounts of epic loot was dropping, well the game from that point onward gear wise was fundamentally changed. if they released raids in Wrath and all that dropped was blue gear, really awesome blue/superior gear but blue nonetheless people would go ballistic saying that it was a "slap" in the face.

Basically the expectation is there that raids = epics, the only raid dungeon besides the Old World pre MC raids to buck that trend was ZG. Although popular in the end many of the rewards were upgraded to epics after the fact.
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Postby halabar » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:35 am

Frankly, I think the 10-man progression is about the best compromise for the whole loot issue. It works better for the casuals and smaller guilds, provides a different level of loot than the 25-mans, and doesn't require the 10-25 man jump, aka kara-Gruul. That, along with better loot from Heroics, should solve the problem as best as we can hope for.

And the Goggles?.. just make the best version drop in a 10-man, and let a better helm drop in the 25-man. Both problems solved. Casual gets his goggles, raider gets a better helm.
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Postby Norrath » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:37 am

halabar wrote:No, it's supposed to indicate rarity, if you read what Blizz says, but I agree that it SHOULD indicate quality...

No, it indicates quality.

Ilevel 115 epics have more itempoints than ilevel 115 blues. I'm not just spouting things, here.

halabar wrote:(It actually does to some degree, but it's not consistent, and is pretty broken at lvl 70).

That depends entirely on your definition of "quality". I'm speaking purely item-points-wise.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:38 am

Casuals... Raiders... I hate those two words used in tandem. Ridiculous words that don't mean anything anymore. Not everyone plays the same for the same reasons they don't need a label for that it's called personal preference. I am in a casual guild, we raid three times a week we have completed all raid instances besides Sunwell; hell we downed Illidan before we downed Vashj... currently working on Kael'thas.

But I raid, I do heroics, dailies... explore the world... I enjoy all these things so what am I? Am I casual by your frame of reference or am I a raider? Because anything you do to cater to those that don't raid if it is fun I am going to do it to.
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Postby Paladei » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:05 am

I've talked about the issue of item colour with a friend of mine a few times. The only part of the loot-table scheme that I've been upset about is that there are Legendary items dropping straight from raid bosses.

Do what you want with rares and epics, but I think legendaries should keep the MC format and have some sort of quest line/crafting requirement in order to complete them. They are supposed to have belonged to someone and I think it makes them more interesting.

That said, I am in no means a progression raider and will never get to see these items. I just think it defeats their purpose by having Kil'Jaeden fork 'em over when he dies.

More on topic, I keep seeing it mentioned that "raiding is going away". But until 2.3 and 2.4, badge loot didn't surpass the drops from high end raiding. As a progression raider, you get your period of "oh wow, he raids BT!"

What Blizzard is attempting to do is keep a relatively level playing field in order to more successfully tune leveling content/instances/etc. in my opinion.

It also comes off as a reward for time and money spent on the game. Can't organize 25mans, but can afford the time and money to continue to play WOW? Don't worry, you'll get yours... just... a little later.
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Postby Kayoto » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:13 am

I concur with Vanifae.

I could make some long, drawn out post about how I used to raid progression content and was the first Paladin MT for a guild that downed Illidan (3rd guild to do so) on my server, and nowadays I only run Karazhan on my Priest once per week, and contribute to this increasingly pointless thread, but that'd just be reiterating things at this point.

If people getting the same 'color' of loot as you for less effort bothers you a lot (and I understand where you're coming from, it's sometimes unsettling to see complete idiots touting better gear in PVP/PVE just because they had the patience to grind honor or farm badges, but it's not the end of the world), you may need to find a different hobby.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:20 am

Kayoto wrote:If people getting the same 'color' of loot as you for less effort bothers you a lot (and I understand where you're coming from, it's sometimes unsettling to see complete idiots touting better gear in PVP/PVE just because they had the patience to grind honor or farm badges, but it's not the end of the world), you may need to find a different hobby.


Well, again, it's where you draw the line. Personally, it doesn't ruin my play experience that any druid who heals in arena will have gear that looks similar to and has as many stats as my raiding gear. It doesn't really even bother me that, after a few months of new content has passed, they introduce new badge gear to help players get through the content. Heck, I'd go as far as to say a lot of us as Prot Paladins would have quit or rerolled if it weren't for the 2.3 and ZA gear. But yeah, people should have to do something halfway difficult for good gear.

I'm not even sure any of this is relevant though, tbh. I think it'd be a cool idea to have a different color for each itemlevel set, like Quest greens / T4 blues / T5 Purples / T6 Reds, or something (with a similar color system for PvP gear).
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Postby Daine » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:29 am

I think I agree with Modus in that there needs to be some level of distinction between gear achievements. Epics now are common as muck, and while some are better than others it'd be nice to have that difference between one tier of ilevels and the next. Farming the lowest of the low instances for gear equivalent to Tier 6 gear really made me quite sour at first, but I've seen it help us out now with recruiting new people in semi-decent gear. It is as he said, a question of where you draw the line - if there was some degree of difficulty in attaining something, it's easier to judge the worth of that player. I just guess that goes against the ethos that WoW has of making most things openly available, which is good in another respect... I'm rambling again.
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