Remove Advertisements

On Heroic vs regular level 80 loot

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby moduspwnens » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:51 pm

Vanifae wrote:Burning Crusade thankfully offered many avenues to progress gear and not to say all were success they should hopefully set the ground work for a better system in Wrath, hopefully allowing 10-man raids for everything will open up more content and options to more people. I think this should be encouraged and not frowned upon.


Oh it's fine, and the pre-BC system wasn't a good one. But again, you have to draw the line somewhere. One of the main reasons they're making the ten man raids have the same bosses and such of the twenty five man raids is because people wanted to see the content, but didn't like the logistics and scheduling difficulties of a twenty five man raid. Thus, the new ten man raid system. But why draw the line there? Now suddenly having ten people kill Arthas is as epic as twenty five? Having ten people still would be a burden to schedule. Why not have Arthas be five manned? Or solo'd?

Where would the line be drawn here? After all, it's the same concept. Joe Bob's gameplay won't affect yours. Should he be able to solo Arthas?
Last edited by moduspwnens on Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Postby Vanifae » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:53 pm

Actually many electronic games have cheat codes so if you can't beat the game you can cheat and still beat the game. MMO games are a unique beast and I do think that yes some things should be taken into consideration, Blizzard specifically made the Badge loot comparable but still shy of the best you could get from BT/MH; though some were damn close and invalidated some previous loot overall it made for an improvement for everyone involved. Maybe you have been raiding and you have such terrible luck with drops that you supplement your raid epics with Badge epics; nothing wrong there.

Maybe you started the game 8 months after expansion just hit 70/80 and want to catch up to your friends, you run heroics with them, go on the raids you can and get badges/tokens plus loot and you generally catch up much quicker then if you were at launch. I think this is fine.

I do not think we should go to the extreme and have people getting end game drops for nothing, and with the fixes to Arena or perhaps band aids that is somewhat improving but still the issue will persist. When you give people options they will probably take the path of least resistance. That is human nature and I can't change that. But the fact that the choice exists is an improvement over what came before.
This is why I'm a humorless feminist. Because rape jokes killed my sense of humor.
Minnerva wrote:if you act like a jerk then we push you away unless when born the girl got slapped around by her father.
User avatar
Vanifae
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:36 am

Postby moduspwnens » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:55 pm

Vanifae wrote:I do not think we should go to the extreme and have people getting end game drops for nothing, and with the fixes to Arena or perhaps band aids that is somewhat improving but still the issue will persist. When you give people options they will probably take the path of least resistance. That is human nature and I can't change that. But the fact that the choice exists is an improvement over what came before.


Well then in this case we've come to somewhat of an agreement: that there is a line. We just disagree on where that line is. I can accept that.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Postby Vanifae » Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:03 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Where would the line be drawn here? After all, it's the same concept. Joe Bob's gameplay won't affect yours. Should he be able to solo Arthas?


Joe Bob should be able to meaningfully interact with your game, and if Joe Bob likes to solo then he should still be able to interact and fight against Arthas, to use your example. But Joe Bob can expect that he will never defeat the Lich King solo maybe not till we can reach level 100 but he can expect to have a meaningful and fun experience and progress his character within reason via various options in the game.

I think this is fine, and again I am not advocating raider versus casual here just validating that different play styles should be considered and given options to be rewarded and progress in the game. I think if they do a 10-man version of Arthas perhaps you weaken him but don’t fully defeat him and you loot his cache or some such. Maybe even in the 25-man you don’t kill him, we have no idea what they have in store for this expansion. I think the 10-man should have a meaningful experience with him, even if they do not kill him. Same with the 25-man and the 5-man if there is such a thing.

But again the scope should be considered and the scope and difficulty should have commensurate rewards. The problem is envy from those who feel they are being shafted because they can’t do blank and get the shiny. Which could be compounded by those with the shiny feeling that those without are lazy good for nothings who cannot or will not “work” for their shinies. The problem essentially is the loot itself, and I am not sure how to balance the two without either devaluing the reward or over inflating the accomplishment. It is a balancing act I don’t relish to even be apart of because someone somewhere will cry foul.

But I think the best of both worlds is the way to go, make sure that high ends rewards are still very good but also allow other rewards that are almost as good and yet still feel like meaningful upgrades.
This is why I'm a humorless feminist. Because rape jokes killed my sense of humor.
Minnerva wrote:if you act like a jerk then we push you away unless when born the girl got slapped around by her father.
User avatar
Vanifae
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:36 am

Postby Vanifae » Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:15 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Vanifae wrote:I do not think we should go to the extreme and have people getting end game drops for nothing, and with the fixes to Arena or perhaps band aids that is somewhat improving but still the issue will persist. When you give people options they will probably take the path of least resistance. That is human nature and I can't change that. But the fact that the choice exists is an improvement over what came before.


Well then in this case we've come to somewhat of an agreement: that there is a line. We just disagree on where that line is. I can accept that.

Sounds good to me :)
This is why I'm a humorless feminist. Because rape jokes killed my sense of humor.
Minnerva wrote:if you act like a jerk then we push you away unless when born the girl got slapped around by her father.
User avatar
Vanifae
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:36 am

Postby Passionario » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:10 am

moduspwnens wrote:Then perhaps there should be another way to progress a character than through gear. Maybe we can agree on this.

Ah, yes. If I was in Blizzard's place, I'd create a whole new built-in system that would track everyone's progress in all areas of the game, be it PvP, raiding, solo adventures, profession mastery, and so forth. I'd also include some way to easily compare these feats between various characters, both via the Armory, and in-game.
If you are not the flame, you're the fuel.
User avatar
Passionario
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 am

Postby Widdox » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:45 am

I feel like I am breaking a code. Do I get a gold star?
Image
Widdox
 
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:33 am

Postby Norrath » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:54 am

<ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED - Code Breaker>
Image
Image
User avatar
Norrath
 
Posts: 843
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:43 pm
Location: Denmark

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:58 am

Passionario wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Then perhaps there should be another way to progress a character than through gear. Maybe we can agree on this.

Ah, yes. If I was in Blizzard's place, I'd create a whole new built-in system that would track everyone's progress in all areas of the game, be it PvP, raiding, solo adventures, profession mastery, and so forth. I'd also include some way to easily compare these feats between various characters, both via the Armory, and in-game.


The achievement system doesn't quite apply because non-raiders will still want gear. It's more of just another thing to do that offers little or no benefit, like professions, World PvP, amount of gold, etc. A better comparison would be like the PvP gear system is to the PvE gear system, but even that isn't quite accurate because of how you can PvE in PvP gear much more effectively than vice versa (in most cases).

EDIT: Eh, I guess it applies somewhat, in that it is a way of advancing your character, but it won't make your character perform better. As far as I know, it's just for silly pets and whatnot.
Last edited by moduspwnens on Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Postby amh » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:59 am

Ah, yes. If I was in Blizzard's pla
ce, I'd create a w
hole new built-in syst
em that would track e
veryone's progr
ess in all areas of the ga
me, b
e it PvP, raiding, solo adve
ntures, profession mastery, and so for
th
. I'd al
so include
some wa
y to ea
sily compare
these f
eats between various characters, both via the Ar
mory, and in-game
.


And I now regret spending 10 minutes doing that -_- Try quoting it, see the code. I guess I should be working or something right now.
I used to play a paladin.
User avatar
amh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 6:25 am
Location: Oh hi

raiding

Postby chaos45 » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:40 am

Well I raided some pre BC and alot in BC. From my experiences this is what I have to say on the issue of epics.

I prefer 10 man raids over all other types, 10 people are far easier to get together, yet can still be a challenge to get everyone doing what they are supposed to do until everyone knows their job well. 25 man raids are just insane you end up waiting for people at many various points you need to develop a complicated loot system that the GL or Officers can then screw you over anyway on as it is.

I for one am vary happy that I can see all of the end game contecnt in wrath by doing 10 man grps over doing 25 mans. Guild doing 25 mans usually have to havea much larger larger playing base, and thus more room for shitheads to be involved and help to ruin the gaming experience. With a smaller group you have more control over who you need to group with to accomplish your tasks. I do think epics should be scaled just like they did in BC, make them easier and easier to get via other methods as time passes in the expansion. At first Kara loot was good but over time as guilds moved into 25 man content it was overshadowed by other drops. Then as they moved into the end game they opened up the badge system with better drops as time went on.

Just because I have little desire to play in a 25 man grp does not mean I dont put the time into my character that those same players do. In fact I would argue that a person who makes their own epics via craft or gets then via 30 heroic runs has spent just as much time and earned those same epics. Hell if anything, and thru the people u know you can almost get given epics by raiding if you have the right contacts, or in the case of some guild on our server selling loot raid spots for gold on higher content. So saying you must raid to be cool is rubbish.

I only raided up to Kael, but i have a friend thats a GL of a guild just finishing up BT and even he said he would rather be able to see all content on 10 man grps than waste all the time trying to organize 25 man raids all the time.

So I truly think only a very small minority of WoW players truly enjoy 25 man raids 4 times a week. I dont mind playing WoW, but dealing with 25 players most of my weeks is definately not a fun gaming experience.
chaos45
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:24 am

Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:39 am

I'd just like to add my experience about raiding, both Pre tbc and after. I've raided progression kills in every raid instance in the game. And as all 3 roles, spanning that time, healer/dps/tank.

Detractors ALWAYS say that raids such as Molten Core allowed you to bring 10-15 slackers, and still accomplish something. THIS IS NOT TRUE. If you are attacking a Boss, with gear appropriate to the content, most every boss is very challenging, with 40 active, engaged, participating raid members. There is no room for "dead weight" in a progression kill.

Specifically in this thread, people have pointed out razorgore and vael. Razorgore required every bit of dps, coordination and healing that we could squeeze out. Vael was a dps race, and thus, required lots of GOOD dps, on the ball healers, and on the ball tanks. I can go through encounter after encounter, if you'd like, but my point stands. For progression kills, every raid member has ALWAYS counted.

The reason that people, specifically progression fight raiders, were/are upset at "welfare epics", is that they view the game is being dumbed down. The intense preparation, strategy, and execution is what makes raiding FUN. There is a huge reward to participating deeply in a group based encounter, and succeeding.

I honestly believe that raiders are afraid of losing that element in the game. There will always, of course, be a few guilds, who find enough like-minded people to tackle progression fights. But if Blizzard provides too meaningful of upgrades outside of the progression raiding track, the raiders who raid for the group based play will have more and more trouble finding enough members to achieve their goals. (Sadly, most guild have to fill their ranks with a few "loot whores". They aren't in the game for the challenge, or group comraderie, just EPICZ. The more of these you have, the less likely you'll get very many progression kills)

Vanifae talked about solo players wanting the options, and routes open, to be able to achieve their goals in game. Well, progression raiders want the same. And they feel they're losing it. There will always be a few core raiding guilds, who've been around long enough to establish a solid base of like minded players, but if the casual epic line is drawn too far from "hardcore" raiding, the progression raiders won't have the means to accomplish their goals.

It's not about LOOTZ, it's about gameplay. Of course in a gear-centric game, those are usually one and the same, but it doesn't detract from the real situation at hand. The progression raiders, many of whom have been doing the same thing for 3 years now, feel like "their game" is being taken away by casuals.
Image
thegreatheed
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:02 pm

Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:07 am

Your post was great but let's not frame it in the reference of casuals versus raiders that to me devalues your point entirely. Raiding will exist, and I hope it persists and I am sure it will; but the options for both those that raid and those that don't are enormous now. Compared to Pre-TBC I should add.
This is why I'm a humorless feminist. Because rape jokes killed my sense of humor.
Minnerva wrote:if you act like a jerk then we push you away unless when born the girl got slapped around by her father.
User avatar
Vanifae
 
Posts: 7123
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:36 am

Postby halabar » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:13 am

Modal wrote:I think they should just give tier pants a bigger bulge the first 10 times they drop on your server and after that "nerf" them. Problem solved.


This. E-peen for the 1337
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Postby halabar » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:14 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Elsie wrote:I'd hate for things to go the MgT route. Epics being rougher to obtain is always nice. You feel more progression from greens to blues to purples. They would have to start infringing on orange's prestige and make the new orange red.

Yes, I'm saying something as trivial as color matters to me. There's a vibe that goes past just item level and it's only really displayable via graphics and fluff detail.


I agree with this. Karazhan gear should have been blue, and Naxx10 gear probably should be, too. Really, anything puggable should be blue. If you can pull a boss without saying a word to anyone, or maybe only one sentence (i.e., Kill the gnomes, Kill the water tanks), it should be blue. The fact that Illidan and Kil'jaeden drop the same color of loot as the first boss of Heroic MgT or the last boss of any heroic should bother anyone. It just perpetuates the "I pay $15/mo, I want the same thing people who actually commit some time to this game to have."

It goes both ways, though. People say, "WTF, why does color matter to you?" Well, why does color matter to YOU? My way is better, imo.

Ugh, did I just start a casual vs. hardcore thing? Nvm.


Yes, you did...

I think they should get rid of colors entirely. Just use the damn ilvl.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest