On Heroic vs regular level 80 loot

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Postby Zalaria » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:16 pm

I'm not saying that people should only get epics from raiding. I'm saying that they should be something you have to earn. Whether that's through being good at pvp (high arena rating), or crafting something that you have to work toward, or raiding high-end content. What I don't like is people who afk honor or lose 10 games a week for raid-equivalent gear, and 5-mans that give better gear than 10-man instances.

I don't mind the badge gear, because you have to work to get enough badges for the good stuff.


no work = no reward
work = reward
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Postby ZombieRitual » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:40 pm

I'd like to point out that every single boss in ZG dropped epics, as did every AQ20 boss. Also, BWL took a considerably larger amount of proper action from raid members. Razorgore was nuts when the instance first came out, everyone had to dps Vael effectively enough to kill him in the time limit, tanks had to learn how to stay in a certain position for threat, and the entire raid had to react quickly enough to deal with burning adrenaline. Other fights in BWL also took people knowing what to do what they were supposed to do in order to prevent wipes. It's not like people just auto-piloted their way through 40 mans. You clearly weren't there when the content was end game.
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Postby Vanifae » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:40 pm

Zalaria wrote:I'm not saying that people should only get epics from raiding. I'm saying that they should be something you have to earn. Whether that's through being good at pvp (high arena rating), or crafting something that you have to work toward, or raiding high-end content. What I don't like is people who afk honor or lose 10 games a week for raid-equivalent gear, and 5-mans that give better gear than 10-man instances.

I don't mind the badge gear, because you have to work to get enough badges for the good stuff.


no work = no reward
work = reward

Replace work with effort.

Also said five man came much further along in the game cycle then Karazhan did, thee is nothing wrong with that it is a moderately difficult instance much harder then any other five man for most people. But besides the point why does it matter does it in any way cheapen your experience of play if Joe Bob AFKs and gets an epic sword are you now suddenly worse off? Is he taking something from you? Are you forced to group or even spend time with that person?

I don't think so, the crux is, at the end of the day people play this game the way they want to play and they should be rewarded because this game is based around tangible equipment rewards. I see nothing wropng with it because in no way does Joe Bob getting an epic impact or lessen my gameplay experience.
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Postby Karock » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:48 pm

Zombieritual wrote:I'd like to point out that every single boss in ZG dropped epics, as did every AQ20 boss. Also, BWL took a considerably larger amount of proper action from raid members. Razorgore was nuts when the instance first came out, everyone had to dps Vael effectively enough to kill him in the time limit, tanks had to learn how to stay in a certain position for threat, and the entire raid had to react quickly enough to deal with burning adrenaline. Other fights in BWL also took people knowing what to do what they were supposed to do in order to prevent wipes. It's not like people just auto-piloted their way through 40 mans. You clearly weren't there when the content was end game.


Razorgore required CERTAIN people to be doing tasks well. The others were pretty much given a position and told to kill things.

Vael required people to move away from the raid when they got BA (you had a max of 20 seconds - 5% reduction a second - to move, obviously it was effectively less due to the aoe aura). Vael required your tanks to all threat about the same save for the current MT (who would do as much as possible) and the next tank in line (who would do the same rotation that the other tanks were doing with heroic strikes more often). Voila perfect threat change from one tank to the next. Vael required your healers (hey that was me) to either be priest and PoH their group or be able to switch targets to heal instead of spamming on one person.

Etc, etc.

BWL wasn't about your 40 man raid being on the ball, it was about having a core of raiders drag other people who could put forth a minimal amount of effort through the instance.
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Postby Vanifae » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:36 pm

Let's not devolve into a debate of skill in raiding... this thread is going nowhere fast.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:49 pm

Karock wrote:
Zombieritual wrote:I'd like to point out that every single boss in ZG dropped epics, as did every AQ20 boss. Also, BWL took a considerably larger amount of proper action from raid members. Razorgore was nuts when the instance first came out, everyone had to dps Vael effectively enough to kill him in the time limit, tanks had to learn how to stay in a certain position for threat, and the entire raid had to react quickly enough to deal with burning adrenaline. Other fights in BWL also took people knowing what to do what they were supposed to do in order to prevent wipes. It's not like people just auto-piloted their way through 40 mans. You clearly weren't there when the content was end game.


Razorgore required CERTAIN people to be doing tasks well. The others were pretty much given a position and told to kill things.

Vael required people to move away from the raid when they got BA (you had a max of 20 seconds - 5% reduction a second - to move, obviously it was effectively less due to the aoe aura). Vael required your tanks to all threat about the same save for the current MT (who would do as much as possible) and the next tank in line (who would do the same rotation that the other tanks were doing with heroic strikes more often). Voila perfect threat change from one tank to the next. Vael required your healers (hey that was me) to either be priest and PoH their group or be able to switch targets to heal instead of spamming on one person.

Etc, etc.

BWL wasn't about your 40 man raid being on the ball, it was about having a core of raiders drag other people who could put forth a minimal amount of effort through the instance.


To be honest, all the fights, even TAQ, Naxx, and TBC raids were/are like that. The only difference is that they got to a point where they made it so if one person messed up the raid would wipe. Broken down to an individual level, all fights are easy.
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Postby Karock » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:02 pm

I wasn't trying to debate the ease of actually doing an encounter. I was saying that I believe there are different levels of "earn" that went on in the old 40 person raids, and that it was up to a few to carry it off while most did nothing more than "move out of the fire" and hit their one button repeatedly.

I agree that what changed, at least largely, as raids did progress and as they progress in TBC are the amount of people who are able to slack off.

That is my point =P Loot already went to people who did as little or less than the people who are doing a heroic and definitely less than people who are doing a 10 man, especially when it's progression content.
Last edited by Karock on Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Soltyr » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:22 pm

[edit]wrong thread :P
Last edited by Soltyr on Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Proudfoot » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:29 pm

Zalaria wrote:I'm not saying that people should only get epics from raiding. I'm saying that they should be something you have to earn. Whether that's through being good at pvp (high arena rating), or crafting something that you have to work toward, or raiding high-end content. What I don't like is people who afk honor or lose 10 games a week for raid-equivalent gear, and 5-mans that give better gear than 10-man instances.

I don't mind the badge gear, because you have to work to get enough badges for the good stuff.


no work = no reward
work = reward


Well personally winning 50% of my fights in arena on a good day wasn't a choice and I was definetly "working" to win. I've never gotten much higher then a 1550 rating and by your definition I shouldn't ever get arena gear... I don't deserve it. Because Blizzard decided that Ret shouldn't be as PVP viable I don't deserve the same thing any facerolling warlock/druid can get?

AFK'ing in battlegrounds shouldn't be allowed and there should be heavy penalties for doing it (like lose 10% of your total honor for each time it's confirmed). That being said there should be larger honor gains in BG's for winning IMO. The reason people go AFK in BG's is because it SOOOOO boring to do the same BG's over and over and over and over. I have never gone AFK in a BG and it would litteraly take me weeks to get one epic if I did nothing but BG's when I play. I don't agree with the term welfare epics since to me THAT is alot of work.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:11 pm

Incoming Long Post

Vanifae wrote:But besides the point why does it matter does it in any way cheapen your experience of play if Joe Bob AFKs and gets an epic sword are you now suddenly worse off? Is he taking something from you? Are you forced to group or even spend time with that person?


I see this a lot, and it's a terrible argument.

...So why have challenges in the game at all? Why even have bosses drop better loot? After all, Joe Bob should be able to AFK himself into Sunwell gear. It shouldn't cheapen my experience, right? I get my Sunwell loot from killing Sunwell bosses, and he can get his from doing five mans once or twice a week, and Karazhan maybe once a month. I shouldn't care, right? Since I don't have to see him, it doesn't matter.

If that's the case, then why do bosses even drop loot? Why not just have all bosses have Karazhan HP/Swing damage/Raid damage and that be that?

Imaginary Retort wrote:It SHOULD be that way, Modus. After all, if all you silly raiders say you raid because you enjoy raiding, what difference does it make?


You're right. After all, I do enjoy raiding with friends, I love getting server firsts, and my screenshot collection brings me great joy. But what about AFTER that first kill? Well, it's still fun. What about after kill number six? It gets to be a little tedious, right? I mean, when someone asks you to do Karazhan, you don't jump for joy anymore, right?

That's because this game needs something to keep you running that instance 900 times. Why did I run Karazhan on my Paladin even five or six times after it stopped being fun? Because that !@#$% refused to drop my necklace, and there wasn't an upgrade until past Kael'thas. I want that necklace for a few reasons. One is completion (I have nothing I need from Karazhan), and the other is because it's one piece of a set of gear that I'll need to be competitive in future content.

I needed that necklace (as well as many other pieces from Karazhan) before I could be an effective tank in Gruul/Mag. So I ran Karazhan far more times than it was fun to get the pieces, simply because I needed it to continue into tougher content. This took some work on my part. I could have just said "%@#$ it. I'm tired of Karazhan. I'll be alright without my necklace, gloves, boots, and cloak," but then if everyone in my guild said that, we probably wouldn't get too terribly far into the content, and when a similar attitude kicked in, like "Screw this. We've been wiping on Gruul all night, I'm tired of this crap," half the guild signs off, and no progression happens.

So, getting geared to push through PvE content requires work! I have to farm content far beyond what is fun, and I (generally) have to put up with retards standing in fire until we push through progression content.

Imaginary Retort wrote:Aha! Modus, if this game is work, you shouldn't be playing. I play games to have fun. I don't pay to work, and if I want to work, I'll get paid for it.


I understand that sentiment, and that's fine, but the game can't work that way. If I only played this game as long as it were immediately fun, I'd only have half of my Karazhan gear, be in a super casual guild, and probably only play this game a couple of hours a week (as you know, many players are like this). If the game were designed so that you only play the game as long as you're having immediate fun (i.e., no two months of farming zones), there would be no way to keep people playing. This is why you're still playing this game, but you stopped playing virtually all the other games in your life.

To keep people playing, they need to force you to do things that aren't fun, like doing dailies to afford raid mats, or farm boring instances. If they didn't do this, they'd have to turn out new content at four to five times the rate they have now, and it's just impossible. Some of you may not have realized it, but that's the case. However, if you're being forced to do things that aren't fun in order to do things that are, it is effectively work.

So to stay on the edge of content, I have to do work. My immediate reward is, of course, seeing the content and the challenge of the fights, but the cycle begins again once the content gets stale. I have to work to be ready for the next tier of content. I'm alright with it. But what happens when, say, they institute the new PvP gear system? Now, people can AFK their way into getting gear that looks just like mine. These people can get gear almost as good as mine, while skipping all the "work" I had to do.

Yes, that's annoying. He didn't have to farm raid content six or seven more times after it became stale. He didn't have to coordinate with nine or twenty four other people to learn new fights and figure out the perfect strategy. All he did was download an AFK bot and leave it on for several nights, and play ten to twenty arena games per week. Does it directly influence my play? No, but it takes away from what my gear meant. Back when BT/Hyjal were the hot new thing, if you saw someone with a Bulwark, it didn't just mean he killed Illidan. It meant he were in one of the top guilds on the server, having had virtually all of his gear from the previous tier, and having a raid leader good enough to coordinate all these people (who also must have been skilled, to have cleared the content so quickly).

This game is built on the fact that those who put in the most effort will get the most reward, and the second that balance is upset, this game will collapse. PvP gear is one slap against it (although could be done correctly, when S4 weapons are ~= Warglaives, something is wrong), and then powerful badge gear, and what's next?
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Postby Vanifae » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:25 pm

One you are putting words in my mouth at no point do I speak of challenges I specifically refer to play experience. I enjoy challenge; I relish the thrill of defeating a difficult boss with my guild. Second off I am a raider, it’s what I do in this game but even I recognize that other people do not always enjoy raiding and they should still be rewarded or allowed to progress their character through an outlet in this game.

Second, I commend your accomplishments but I never see this game as work, yeah at one time I did but then I realized this isn’t work. I don’t get paid for it, and in no way does this greatly enrich my life or that of others; but this game does require effort to accomplish and complete the higher end content as it should be, but again this in no way reflects poorly on those players that receive their rewards by doing soely PvP or Badge loot or whatever. I don’t even care about them because their accomplishments unless they actively raid with me, which I can attest they don’t and do not affect me.

Third you assumed that I want to get drug into this raider versus casual bullshit, and that is preposterous. I put in the effort and my guild and myself are rewarded for my efforts with success and progression through content. I don’t care if Joe Bob get’s his PvP epic bow or his friend does Heroic New Instance after launch and gets an epic that is better then some epic I looted months ago when I was doing high end content. How does that affect me? It does not and I will commend and then go back to my guild and get ready to raid whatever content we are doing at that time, or do a heroic, or farm money for consumables, or perhaps pursue an Achievement as is my wont.

Finally how does it take away from your accomplishments? Because you don’t feel special anymore? Do you need outside validation for your accomplishments which are personal and relegated to an artificial playing field? I know I don’t, is it cool to have the best gear hell yeah it is but the coolest thing for me is to log in with my guild mates and friends enter an instance and conquer some new content and help people I like get new things and see new stuff.

I could care less if your guild is the best on the server or still struggling to get into Karazhan; PvE accomplishments are personal, PvP accomplishments are personal, and at the point that you decide that your standing among your peers depends on how much “work” and epics you have then perhaps you have lost a little perspective. But if that is why you play this game then that is also fine and continue on, because at the end of the day your experience will not affect mine unless I allow you to do so.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:34 pm

Vanifae wrote:Second off I am a raider, it’s what I do in this game but even I recognize that other people do not always enjoy raiding and they should still be rewarded or allowed to progress their character through an outlet in this game.


Then perhaps there should be another way to progress a character than through gear. Maybe we can agree on this.

Vanifae wrote:Third you assumed that I want to get drug into this raider versus casual bullshit, and that is preposterous. I put in the effort and my guild and myself are rewarded for my efforts with success and progression through content. I don’t care if Joe Bob get’s his PvP epic bow or his friend does Heroic New Instance after launch and gets an epic that is better then some epic I looted months ago when I was doing high end content. How does that affect me? It does not and I will commend and then go back to my guild and get ready to raid whatever content we are doing at that time, or do a heroic, or farm money for consumables, or perhaps pursue an Achievement as is my wont.


In that case, let me take it a step further. You don't mind if Joe Bob gets his bow months after you got yours. What if it's maybe only weeks? Days? What if he gets his bow before you? Where do you draw the line? At what point should he have to do what you do to get gear like yours?
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Postby Vanifae » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:38 pm

Dude that has already happened to me. I was probably one of the first Protection paladins on my server on the Horde side at 70. Speaking of Mal'ganis here, I still don't have a Bulwark... not even in Sunwell... just downed Illidan... and I know there are plenty of nub paladins I have seen that have the shield that started months after I did and probably got it only because no one else needed it.

Yet I am fine, and no when content is on farm it isn't hard and not a challenge it's the same as grinding heroics and getting a sweet item. I realize that I will progress but I won't progress at the expense of my friends or guild. I could have been in Sunwell and looking sparkly but I chose my guild and friends over epics.

So to answer your question it would not bother me.

I won't draw the line because that is his play experience and I have mine, and I still have fun in this game if I didn't I would quit and find a new avenue of fun.
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Postby Vanifae » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:46 pm

I probably should add that I think that rewards should be commensurate to the effort, difficulty, and scope of the actions involved. But also allow differing avenues of advancement and since WoW is very gear-centric this tends to be an advancement of gear at max-level which if you have been playing for long time you know that in pre-expansion was pretty dismal for anyone except raiders and hard core pvp people. Basically you got your dungeon set, maybe some gear from Dire Maul and that was it. Maybe you upgraded your dungeon set… then you stagnated.

Burning Crusade thankfully offered many avenues to progress gear and not to say all were success they should hopefully set the ground work for a better system in Wrath, hopefully allowing 10-man raids for everything will open up more content and options to more people. I think this should be encouraged and not frowned upon.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:47 pm

Vanifae wrote:Dude that has already happened to me. I was probably one of the first Protection paladins on my server on the Horde side at 70. Speaking of Mal'ganis here, I still don't have a Bulwark... not even in Sunwell... just downed Illidan... and I know there are plenty of nub paladins I have seen that have the shield that started months after I did and probably got it only because no one else needed it.

Yet I am fine, and no when content is on farm it isn't hard and not a challenge it's the same as grinding heroics and getting a sweet item. I realize that I will progress but I won't progress at the expense of my friends or guild. I could have been in Sunwell and looking sparkly but I chose my guild and friends over epics.

So to answer your question it would not bother me.


That's a different situation, but I think the point I'm making still stands. You, personally, may not mind at all if a guy buys a Bulwark of Azzinoth for heroic badges, even before any guilds have cleared Illidan. For others, a similar situation is debated... Would it bother you if Arthas was killed by a ten man raid before the twenty-five? Blizzard still hasn't decided how they'd like to do that. It's all about where you draw the line, and I think it's completely valid to feel that other players should have to do what I've done to get what I've got.

After all, isn't that how virtually all other games work?
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