On Heroic vs regular level 80 loot

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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:22 pm

Dorvan wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I'll ask the same questions I asked Vanifae early in this thread. What if the Inscribed Legplates were available days after BT opened? The same time? What if the Inscribed Legplates were offered before BT opened by several days? Is that peachy? What if it weren't just the Inscribed Legplates, but a full set of gear?

You can go back to my first post in this thread regarding what would happen if bosses didn't drop loot at all. You have to ask where the line is. Personally, no, it doesn't bother me that the stuff comes out months later and gives everyone a fair shot at it.


Well, then what's your point exactly? You're arguing against a system (bleeding edge quality badge gear being released at the same time as raids droping that quality gear) which doesn't exist now and doesn't appear to be planned for WotLK.

I have to agree you are creating a scenario that has not and probably will not exist in WoW.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:27 pm

Vanifae wrote:
Dorvan wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I'll ask the same questions I asked Vanifae early in this thread. What if the Inscribed Legplates were available days after BT opened? The same time? What if the Inscribed Legplates were offered before BT opened by several days? Is that peachy? What if it weren't just the Inscribed Legplates, but a full set of gear?

You can go back to my first post in this thread regarding what would happen if bosses didn't drop loot at all. You have to ask where the line is. Personally, no, it doesn't bother me that the stuff comes out months later and gives everyone a fair shot at it.


Well, then what's your point exactly? You're arguing against a system (bleeding edge quality badge gear being released at the same time as raids droping that quality gear) which doesn't exist now and doesn't appear to be planned for WotLK.

I have to agree you are creating a scenario that has not and probably will not exist in WoW.


Well don't take it literally. I mean that everyone has a line. For some people, it's when you open your mailbox and the gear is there. For others, it's maybe if the gear is available when the content is first pushed. For yet another person, it may be if it's available before most guilds have a shot at the bosses in the instance that drop it. And for some people, it's when it's available for heroic badges (lawl Kara + heroics), stronger than T6 for most classes, etc.

If we can agree on this, we can be a lot more civil. Maybe my line is, say, if the content still seems to be cutting edge and they release gear that is better than what is in the cutting edge instances.
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Postby dmok » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:28 pm

What happened to the tierd badge system I've heard about? (Sorry, been away for a week. It's hard to keep up on all this stuff)

If the tiered badge system IS still a go, I don't see this whole badge issue being a problem.

t7 drops t7 badges. You get t7.5 gear from it.
t8 drops t8 badges. You get t8.5 gear from it.
... etc ...

It would basically help those getting poor luck on their current stage of content to gear up with everyone else and prepare for the next stage. If you keep attunments in with all of this, I think it would work out for the best. this would also prevent kara farming by t5/early t6 guilds for upgrades, thus killing a night that could be spent on progression.



Or has the badge system been announced at a 10man badge, 25man badge? This idea was also being tossed around, but I like it far less.
Last edited by dmok on Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:30 pm

dmok wrote:What happened to the tierd badge system I've heard about? (Sorry, been away for a week. It's hard to keep up on all this stuff)

If the tiered badge system IS still a go, I don't see this whole badge issue being a problem.

t7 drops t7 badges. You get t7.5 gear from it.
t8 drops t8 badges. You get t8.5 gear from it.
... etc ...

It would basically help those getting poor luck on their current stage of content to gear up with everyone else and prepare for the next stage. If you keep attunments in with all of this, I thik it would work out for the best.



Or has the badge system been announced at a 10man badge, 25man badge? This idea was also being tossed around, but I like it far less.


I'd probably go for a system like this. One thing that ticks me off is the way that our loot system is random, but the PvP one is points-based (not random at all). Maybe it has to be that way. I dunno. As far as I know, nothing has been clearly announced, but I think there's a shield somewhere in beta called "Naxx10 Badge Shield" or something. Maybe someone below me will know.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:32 pm

moduspwnens wrote:If we can agree on this, we can be a lot more civil. Maybe my line is, say, if the content still seems to be cutting edge and they release gear that is better than what is in the cutting edge instances.

Dorvan said it quite succinctly, I think the line is a sliding line, it is a as it were a living document that changes with the flow of the game. The beginning Heroic Badge loot was good for the beginning era of Burning Crusade, loot that was about 5 item levels below Karazhan, but definitely prepared you and enhanced the end level 70 blue loot for the raid instance.

Once they realize that loot was quickly becoming outdated and terrible compared to what rewards could be achieved through other content they created new rewards that were not better then bleeding edge content but definitely better then Karazhan epics. This trend continued with Sunwell.

To answer dmok, they have not made any open/public comments on the plan but I believe they have hinted that they want a tiered token/badge loot system. Time will tell how they implement this.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:33 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Well don't take it literally. I mean that everyone has a line. For some people, it's when you open your mailbox and the gear is there. For others, it's maybe if the gear is available when the content is first pushed. For yet another person, it may be if it's available before most guilds have a shot at the bosses in the instance that drop it. And for some people, it's when it's available for heroic badges (lawl Kara + heroics), stronger than T6 for most classes, etc.

If we can agree on this, we can be a lot more civil. Maybe my line is, say, if the content still seems to be cutting edge and they release gear that is better than what is in the cutting edge instances.


Which again is a line that we're nowhere near, and Blizzard's given no indication that they plan to move in that direction. Quite the contrary, they seem quite happy with the "release content, then once new content is released nerf the old content and make equivalent gear more available" model.

So sure, I'd agree that if what you're talking about happened it'd be a problem, but there are tons of things that aren't going to happen that I'd object to if they did happen.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 pm

dmok wrote:What happened to the tierd badge system I've heard about? (Sorry, been away for a week. It's hard to keep up on all this stuff)

If the tiered badge system IS still a go, I don't see this whole badge issue being a problem.

t7 drops t7 badges. You get t7.5 gear from it.
t8 drops t8 badges. You get t8.5 gear from it.
... etc ...

It would basically help those getting poor luck on their current stage of content to gear up with everyone else and prepare for the next stage. If you keep attunments in with all of this, I thik it would work out for the best.



Or has the badge system been announced at a 10man badge, 25man badge? This idea was also being tossed around, but I like it far less.

I think the system will be gear about 5 item levels below what currently drops in the instance for Badge loot I am not sure what Naxx Badge is though maybe each instance will have it's own pool of badges for loot from a vendor? Heroics be on their own system, and then maybe each tier or raid instance be another vendor?

We won't know until more details come out and they just finally fixed/updated the token window in the Beta still NYI in my opinion though.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:39 pm

Dorvan wrote:Which again is a line that we're nowhere near, and Blizzard's given no indication that they plan to move in that direction. Quite the contrary, they seem quite happy with the "release content, then once new content is released nerf the old content and make equivalent gear more available" model.

So sure, I'd agree that if what you're talking about happened it'd be a problem, but there are tons of things that aren't going to happen that I'd object to if they did happen.


But again, I'm not arguing that it happened, I'm arguing against the idea that "it doesn't matter what the other guy has; you should enjoy your playstyle." So, perhaps next time the argument comes up, people can say, "Well, HardcoreRaiderA thinks that this gear is giving away too much, but personally, it'd only really bother me if they had released this gear a month or two earlier."

It makes the argument more civil and less hostile than "You're an elitist douchebag and ten million people play this game and Blizzard would be stupid to," well, you get the picture. If we agree that there is a line, then we maybe disagree on where that line is, and it's just a difference of opinion. No need to yell at each other.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:43 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Which again is a line that we're nowhere near, and Blizzard's given no indication that they plan to move in that direction. Quite the contrary, they seem quite happy with the "release content, then once new content is released nerf the old content and make equivalent gear more available" model.

So sure, I'd agree that if what you're talking about happened it'd be a problem, but there are tons of things that aren't going to happen that I'd object to if they did happen.


But again, I'm not arguing that it happened, I'm arguing against the idea that "it doesn't matter what the other guy has; you should enjoy your playstyle." So, perhaps next time the argument comes up, people can say, "Well, HardcoreRaiderA thinks that this gear is giving away too much, but personally, it'd only really bother me if they had released this gear a month or two earlier."

It makes the argument more civil and less hostile than "You're an elitist douchebag and ten million people play this game and Blizzard would be stupid to," well, you get the picture. If we agree that there is a line, then we maybe disagree on where that line is, and it's just a difference of opinion. No need to yell at each other.

I can see that but the example is sort of poorly framed since it is an extreme almost hyperbole and would not exist in the retail product unless Blizzard just hates their own content.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:48 pm

moduspwnens wrote:But again, I'm not arguing that it happened, I'm arguing against the idea that "it doesn't matter what the other guy has; you should enjoy your playstyle." So, perhaps next time the argument comes up, people can say, "Well, HardcoreRaiderA thinks that this gear is giving away too much, but personally, it'd only really bother me if they had released this gear a month or two earlier."

It makes the argument more civil and less hostile than "You're an elitist douchebag and ten million people play this game and Blizzard would be stupid to," well, you get the picture. If we agree that there is a line, then we maybe disagree on where that line is, and it's just a difference of opinion. No need to yell at each other.


Um....ok? If you think people are yelling at each other over elitism, you should send a PM to a mod....that shit belongs on official forums. I'm not really willing to stake out a permanent position of a hypothetical that's unlikely to come to fruition. I've called it how I see it and think that any current complaints about WotLK loot distribution are unjustified based on the information at hand....throwing around unrealistic hypotheticals is a great way to get people flaming unnecessarily.

In short, don't look to me for validation of your opinion on hypothetical loot situations that may or may not ever be an issue.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:54 pm

Dorvan wrote:Um....ok? If you think people are yelling at each other over elitism, you should send a PM to a mod....that shit belongs on official forums. I'm not really willing to stake out a permanent position of a hypothetical that's unlikely to come to fruition. I've called it how I see it and think that any current complaints about WotLK loot distribution are unjustified based on the information at hand....throwing around unrealistic hypotheticals is a great way to get people flaming unnecessarily.

In short, don't look to me for validation of your opinion on hypothetical loot situations that may or may not ever be an issue.


/sigh
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:59 pm

If you think I've been disrespectful to you in any way, please let me know. Being respectful towards someone doesn't require validating someone's opinion however, much less future unspecified opinions.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:02 pm

Dorvan wrote:If you think I've been disrespectful to you in any way, please let me know. Being respectful towards someone doesn't require validating someone's opinion however, much less future unspecified opinions.


I don't think you've been disrespectful, it just seems that you're intentionally avoiding my main points just to pluck a hole in my argument. However, it's really just as silly for me to respond at all, because even this post is yet another detracting from my point, which was back on page two or three and is probably lost by now.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:07 pm

edit -- nevermind, I think we've both lost each other so I'll let this die.
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Postby Tev » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:49 pm

One point on the issue of Pugs. Weather something being pugable or not is not static, as more people level up, get better geared, and learn the encounters, just what can be realistically pugged increases. Just after release and the first batch of 70s in tbc, no way was kara puggable. But now I see kara pugs all the time. I see Gruul pugs, Maggy pugs, and ZA pugs.

If you want anything puggable to only drop blue gear, where is the line? And do we nerf epics to blues as soon as something becomes puggable?
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