On Heroic vs regular level 80 loot

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Postby honorshammer » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:11 am

Tev wrote:One point on the issue of Pugs. Weather something being pugable or not is not static, as more people level up, get better geared, and learn the encounters, just what can be realistically pugged increases. Just after release and the first batch of 70s in tbc, no way was kara puggable. But now I see kara pugs all the time. I see Gruul pugs, Maggy pugs, and ZA pugs.

If you want anything puggable to only drop blue gear, where is the line? And do we nerf epics to blues as soon as something becomes puggable?


And puggable on what server. Some servers are pugging 4 bosses in MH, Altar of Storms, not so much.
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Postby Tev » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:29 am

Honorshammer wrote:
Tev wrote:One point on the issue of Pugs. Weather something being pugable or not is not static, as more people level up, get better geared, and learn the encounters, just what can be realistically pugged increases. Just after release and the first batch of 70s in tbc, no way was kara puggable. But now I see kara pugs all the time. I see Gruul pugs, Maggy pugs, and ZA pugs.

If you want anything puggable to only drop blue gear, where is the line? And do we nerf epics to blues as soon as something becomes puggable?


And puggable on what server. Some servers are pugging 4 bosses in MH, Altar of Storms, not so much.


Exactly my point, determining what loot should drop based on if it is or is not puggable is not a good way to go.
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Postby Euphoria » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:43 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Which again is a line that we're nowhere near, and Blizzard's given no indication that they plan to move in that direction. Quite the contrary, they seem quite happy with the "release content, then once new content is released nerf the old content and make equivalent gear more available" model.

So sure, I'd agree that if what you're talking about happened it'd be a problem, but there are tons of things that aren't going to happen that I'd object to if they did happen.


But again, I'm not arguing that it happened, I'm arguing against the idea that "it doesn't matter what the other guy has; you should enjoy your playstyle." So, perhaps next time the argument comes up, people can say, "Well, HardcoreRaiderA thinks that this gear is giving away too much, but personally, it'd only really bother me if they had released this gear a month or two earlier."

It makes the argument more civil and less hostile than "You're an elitist douchebag and ten million people play this game and Blizzard would be stupid to," well, you get the picture. If we agree that there is a line, then we maybe disagree on where that line is, and it's just a difference of opinion. No need to yell at each other.



I never said you're an elitist douchebag and I'd very much appreciate it if you'd not insinuate that I would EVER stoop to personal attacks on a forum, especially one where we're all united by a common class and goal.

But, and I'm asking nicely and politely, please tell me how it makes sense in a business model to create content that 98% of your playerbase will never see?
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Postby Elsie » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:45 am

And puggable on what server. Some servers are pugging 4 bosses in MH, Altar of Storms, not so much.

We pug Archimonde.
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Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:13 am

Wow, just wow at some peoples attitudes. Am gobsmacked.

IT IS A GAME, that should be played for enjoyment, not to satisty e-peens or give you a kick because someone you never met just got laughed out of your guild because they had inferior quality items.

I don't give a shit if you have better gear than me because you raid 4-6 nights a week, if you do have that amount of free time then good luck to you, you deserve better gear! I raid 2 nights a week and fully enjoy those experiances. I don't really care about gear, sure epics are nice, I would be happy in blues if the level of experiances I had in TBC are repeated in WotLK. I look forward to seeing end game as part of a 10 man raiding team, we won't be server firsts [like anyone gives a shit about that tbh outside of the 'hardcore element'] but we will, as a guild of friends, progress at our own speed and get there eventually.

For those saying that 'casual' gamers shouldn't have access to gear that you had to work really hard for, your right, they shouldn't. But that doesn't mean that people who play casually, like me, for a couple of hours, 3-4 nights a week shouldn't also have achievable gear they can aim for that is Epic in quality, just not 'top tier' so we don't bruise any ego's.

I remember when being all in Blue items meant something, before the farce of BG's for Arena Epics. Now it seems if your not fully Epic your a second class citizen. Raids should give Epic items, Heroic instances and normal instances should not. Neither should Battleground Honor. Arena Gear should only be equipable for Arena and Battlegrounds and Blizzard should sort out itemisation so that certain classes don't feel they 'have' to do PvP to get half decent gear.

Piss poor state of affairs tbh. I hope WotLk rectifies this.

This is of course just my view, I respect everyone elses view even if I am a little shocked at some peoples attitudes.

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Postby Macha » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:01 am

moduspwnens wrote:Also, I don't know if people aren't reading my posts, but:

Just because I wear Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor and Tankatronic Goggles doesn't mean that the value of your (not you specifically, Dorvan) Helm of Uther's Resolve or Judicator's Legguards has somehow been diminished.


I'll ask the same questions I asked Vanifae early in this thread. What if the Inscribed Legplates were available days after BT opened? The same time? What if the Inscribed Legplates were offered before BT opened by several days? Is that peachy? What if it weren't just the Inscribed Legplates, but a full set of gear?


What if pigs suddenly got rocket launchers? Who is your god then?
Oh wait. They won't get rocket launchers.

You're constructing a logical fallacy here. Just because a hypothetical scenario that will never happen would be bad does not mean that Joe Casual having gear is bad.

Real arguments just do not work that way. Slippery slope is always used by people without other arguments for a reason - it seems to make sense when one doesn't look closely. But in reality, all you are doing is dodging the actual issue by pretending non-issues might happen.

I think your line of "reasoning" is quite indicative of the nature of the argument in this case. The whole "casuals should be less than me" is a natural feeling for these of us who are ahead, but overall not very productive for Blizzard. It is a good thing they finally realized that.
Ultimately, a raider really isn't hurt by what casual players do - a fact most raiders need to learn.

We can still show off with archivements, if we want to be so omgawesome. These the so-called casuals will not reach that easily. There, in that we can feel superior, if we need to.
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Postby Yinramu » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:23 am

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see heroics having different gear sets than their normal equivalents, especially in the level 80 dungeons. I always thought that was one of those strange weaknesses between the pre-70 heroics and 70 heroics - by the time most of my characters were in heroics, I didn't really want anything that was dropping pre-heroic (besides badges for my libram and that incredible helm - before the new waves of rewards).

I think it's an interesting change in terms of raiding as well - the old dynamic of there being "entry-level" raids (such as the BRS') seems to be going the way of the dinosaur, with the heroic 5 mans replacing them. I think most of us can remember when heroics were actually tough (and Karazhan, and Gruul's, etc.).

Personally, I'm looking forward to raiding the 10 man content with my friends, with what I hope is a much more friendly progression from instance to instance; Kara to ZA is not a particularly simple step.
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Postby GothicPL » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:12 pm

Yinramu wrote:Personally, I'm looking forward to raiding the 10 man content with my friends, with what I hope is a much more friendly progression from instance to instance; Kara to ZA is not a particularly simple step.


I completely agree - smoother progression and smaller raid sizes will make the game much more enjoyable for me and my guild. I don't mind difficult fights at all, and in fact I would welcome many more fights with unique and fun mechanics that make all raid members play their best, but it sucks not being able to go anywhere past ZA because we can't get 25 capable people committed to the raid at the same time for several hours - the reality of a low pop server.

Looking at the new heroic blues vs normal five man blues - well done Blizzard.
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Postby crabcrouton » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Yinramu wrote:Personally, I'm pretty excited to see heroics having different gear sets than their normal equivalents, especially in the level 80 dungeons. I always thought that was one of those strange weaknesses between the pre-70 heroics and 70 heroics - by the time most of my characters were in heroics, I didn't really want anything that was dropping pre-heroic (besides badges for my libram and that incredible helm - before the new waves of rewards).

I think it's an interesting change in terms of raiding as well - the old dynamic of there being "entry-level" raids (such as the BRS') seems to be going the way of the dinosaur, with the heroic 5 mans replacing them. I think most of us can remember when heroics were actually tough (and Karazhan, and Gruul's, etc.).

Personally, I'm looking forward to raiding the 10 man content with my friends, with what I hope is a much more friendly progression from instance to instance; Kara to ZA is not a particularly simple step.

First of all Yin, thank you very much for staying on topic.

Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree. Basically, heroics is going to be a brand new tier between 80 and naxx, which is very exciting. It's extra progression content, but more importantly, it's progression you can complete in 1 to 2 hours anytime you'd like rather than plan for 10 people once a week. For someone like me, who can't devote a 3 hour block, it's a great prospect.
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