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Can I Haz Pretty Cyclez Plz?

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Pretty Cycles for Marcos?

Poll ended at Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:51 am

Yes Plz. I can savez teh kitties
23
28%
Too early to decide on TPS cyclez
12
14%
I want old-style million button, no cycle tankadin TPS
11
13%
Cake
16
19%
Pie
21
25%
 
Total votes : 83

Postby PsiVen » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:23 pm

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:Question, how much GCD does +13% Haste (Wrath of Air + Improved Ret Aura) give?

Please build a working rotation with this numer :wink:


You know, that's a very good point. Our GCDs should be 1.305 with a shammy and retadin around. We can safely assume 1.4 GCDs for 25-mans with some room for lag slippage in the rotation, possibly even 1.3 with a token amount of Haste rating.

But I'm not sure how separate Haste effects stack. Anyone? If they are additive, then a single piece might provide enough haste to allow an extra GCD every 9 seconds.
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Postby solina » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:02 pm

ydraw wrote:
I run an afflic warlock, personally. Shadowbolt is a rarity. Warlock that usually comes with us is an immolate/incinerate/conflagger.


That warlock is bad. ...

You don't need to faceroll shadowbolt to be an effective warlock.


Actually, if you want to maximise DPS, you do.



We're not going to agree on this. Primarily because I said "effective", and you jumped to "maximize". If you come from the point of view of min/maxing everything, and faceroll happens to best, you're going to require people to faceroll. If I brought my 'lock to your raid and you told me I had to spec SL/SL and spam shadowbolts.. I'd leave. Because I come from the point of view that the game is supposed to be fun, and if I have a different playstyle that is also effective, I should be able to use it. Winning the dps meter is not a priority. Not falling asleep at the keyboard while spamming 1 button IS a priority.

ydraw wrote:
I do understand the point on BM hunters.. but I've never run with one, so it never comes up.


You've never run with a single BM hunter in your entire raiding career?


Every hunter I've ever met specced out of BM when they wanted to raid. Probably because they didn't want to watch quartz or use a drinking bird macro.
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Postby dmok » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:12 pm

solina wrote:Every hunter I've ever met specced out of BM when they wanted to raid. Probably because they didn't want to watch quartz or use a drinking bird macro.

As a non-BM hunter ... you have to watch quartz MORE than as a BM hunter, even if the BM hunter isn't using a macro. Fitting 1 shot between autos >>>easier>>> fitting 2 shots between autos, then fitting 1 in, then 2, then 1, and hoping your CDs work out just right ....
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Postby Alorianna » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:53 pm

Heya Cord ^_^

I just wanted to say that I really liek the ideas floating around to discover what kind of threat rotation posibilities exist for us in Wrath. However, until we learn what the fights look like, what's required of us, what the hidden threat components of our new skills look like, etc. this could all very well change.

However, I really don't like the idea of setting up a cast sequence macro for threat for many reasons:

It's far better, IMO, to get the cast sequence ingrained in your head, make it second nature, than to macro it to a single button. As said before, this gives you a more intimate knowledge of what it is you are doing, and thus, gives you adaptability.

Of course, if you wrote the macro yourself, its liekly that you know your sequence pretty well, BUT how often do you get a chance to sit there and mindlessly spam your threat rotation? I am sitting here trying to think of the fights were all that's required of you as a tank is to spam your threat moves, and the list is very small.

In BT the things you can tank that left you spam that same sequence for extended periods of time are:

Najentis
Supremus
Gorefiend
Illidan (not flame tank)

Every other fight has some kind of limiting or hindering factor; RoS P3 zeros your mana every ~10seconds, Bloodboil requires you generate OT threat and to curb your own while MTing, Sharaz silences, every mob in the Illidari council can randomly gain immunities, etc etc etc.

So IMO, while its far more important to learn not only what the best TPS sequence but WHY it is, and how to adapt, rather than have a macro decide. I have my own squence so ingrained in me, I tried specing into 1/2 Imp Judgment instead of 2/2 and I could hold aggro to save my life, since I was always hitting it too soon and wastign a GCD resealing early and all kinds of messiness, so I specced back =p
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Postby Grieves » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:09 pm

fireball spam till i die or mob dies muahhhhhhh
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:43 am

PsiVen wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:Question, how much GCD does +13% Haste (Wrath of Air + Improved Ret Aura) give?

Please build a working rotation with this numer :wink:


You know, that's a very good point. Our GCDs should be 1.305 with a shammy and retadin around. We can safely assume 1.4 GCDs for 25-mans with some room for lag slippage in the rotation, possibly even 1.3 with a token amount of Haste rating.

But I'm not sure how separate Haste effects stack. Anyone? If they are additive, then a single piece might provide enough haste to allow an extra GCD every 9 seconds.


Haste just stacks (see Heroism + Haste on Items). But just with this haste component, I don't think Castsequenz will work that good. Or would work if you make a raid only Sequence.
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Postby cordelia » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:50 am

Alorianna wrote:Heya Cord ^_^

I just wanted to say that I really liek the ideas floating around to discover what kind of threat rotation posibilities exist for us in Wrath. However, until we learn what the fights look like, what's required of us, what the hidden threat components of our new skills look like, etc. this could all very well change.


And this is partially the reason I'm doing this. The kind of extended, 20 second+ rotation analysis I presented is what we will eventually be looking at when more threat info is available. I hope it leads to eventual TPS/TPmin/TPmana calculations, as well as understanding spec requirements. For instance, it looks like we will definitely NOT need improved judgement.

Honestly, the whole macro thing where this thread ended up was only of tangential interest. Perhaps we talk about it, because there isn't enough threat info available. Would I embrace an easy macro if there is one to be found? Sure, but it might not exist. That initial rotation is 18 seconds, 10 abilities, and would require way more characters than we can fit in existing macros.

However, I really don't like the idea of setting up a cast sequence macro for threat for many reasons:

It's far better, IMO, to get the cast sequence ingrained in your head, make it second nature, than to macro it to a single button. As said before, this gives you a more intimate knowledge of what it is you are doing, and thus, gives you adaptability.


Agreed, but again, once you're here, and you could find an easy macro that would simplify things you need to keep track of for producing threat so that you could keep track of more raid-wise things, would you use it? I would.

Of course, if you wrote the macro yourself, its liekly that you know your sequence pretty well, BUT how often do you get a chance to sit there and mindlessly spam your threat rotation? I am sitting here trying to think of the fights were all that's required of you as a tank is to spam your threat moves, and the list is very small.

In BT the things you can tank that left you spam that same sequence for extended periods of time are:

Najentis
Supremus
Gorefiend
Illidan (not flame tank)

Every other fight has some kind of limiting or hindering factor; RoS P3 zeros your mana every ~10seconds, Bloodboil requires you generate OT threat and to curb your own while MTing, Sharaz silences, every mob in the Illidari council can randomly gain immunities, etc etc etc.


Or almost half the fights in BT. I'd take that. Remember, that you can always go back to pushing the individual buttons if you want, so for IC, when a mob goes spell-immune, just keep HS active. Shahraz, make sure you keep HS up, but then use the rotation, resetting if necessary, when non-silenced.

So IMO, while its far more important to learn not only what the best TPS sequence but WHY it is, and how to adapt, rather than have a macro decide. I have my own squence so ingrained in me, I tried specing into 1/2 Imp Judgment instead of 2/2 and I could hold aggro to save my life, since I was always hitting it too soon and wastign a GCD resealing early and all kinds of messiness, so I specced back =p


Agree with this completely. Btw, I did the same thing with 1/2 Judgement. Couldn't do it, and had to spec back.
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Postby fiorina » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:20 am

I there any calculation already up from what level of +Str/weapon dmg HotR won't be a waste of global cooldown as it is now? :)
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:38 am

fiorina wrote:I there any calculation already up from what level of +Str/weapon dmg HotR won't be a waste of global cooldown as it is now? :)


o_O youre doing it wrong with the hammer.
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Postby fiorina » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:32 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
fiorina wrote:I there any calculation already up from what level of +Str/weapon dmg HotR won't be a waste of global cooldown as it is now? :)


o_O youre doing it wrong with the hammer.


well, could be... not sure about your hammer, but mine is hitting for like 200.. which is maybe 350 threat. Dunno, but I'd better renew holy shiled or consecrate in that GCD until I can get decent +str.
Or is damage based just on base weapon damage without +str considered is what you are trying to say? I dunno, really, so asking.
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Postby Rehlachs- » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:51 am

fiorina wrote:well, could be... not sure about your hammer, but mine is hitting for like 200.. which is maybe 350 threat. Dunno, but I'd better renew holy shiled or consecrate in that GCD until I can get decent +str.
Or is damage based just on base weapon damage without +str considered is what you are trying to say? I dunno, really, so asking.


it depends on your "weapon damage". it should be something like
wpndmg = wpnDPS + AP / 14 * wpnspeed

I assume 350 attack power and i will use the hammer's attack speed of 1.8
41.3 + 25 * 1.8 = 84,3

HotR won't be effective until you hit the magical clvl75 so you are able to equip the crafted saronite stuff (link), which you might want to get since ShoR will be avaible at the same clvl. so, your old gear becomes obselete (at least, some parts of it.. depending on the implementation of the promised changes on our tier gear) and so does our weapon.
for example - Unbreakable Will
less speed, more base dps..
100.3 + 25 * 1.6 = 140,3
we would nearly double our weapon dmg, even if this weapon brings a lower attack speed. let's put it this way: aslong we have that little attack power, our biggest benefits will come from that base dps of the weapon we use.

so, let's have a look at our gear at lvl 75. we will have way more attack power due to the strength we stack in order to get a higher block value. so, let's assume 1000 attack power on the same weapons.
41,3 + 71 * 1,8 = 169,1
100,3 + 71 * 1,6 = 213,9
with "better" gear (better in terms of getting more strength) HotR becomes more and more significant. let's try some random crafted weapon with slower attack rate:
104,2 + 71 * 2,6 = 288,8

actually, those numbers still seem to be a little low, but at least we can figure out, that HotR will become stronger once we have to adapt our equipment to ShoR .. and are able to replace our weapon, once the dmg-gain given by HotR makes up the loss of 236 spell power.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:32 am

fiorina wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
fiorina wrote:I there any calculation already up from what level of +Str/weapon dmg HotR won't be a waste of global cooldown as it is now? :)


o_O youre doing it wrong with the hammer.


well, could be... not sure about your hammer, but mine is hitting for like 200.. which is maybe 350 threat. Dunno, but I'd better renew holy shiled or consecrate in that GCD until I can get decent +str.
Or is damage based just on base weapon damage without +str considered is what you are trying to say? I dunno, really, so asking.


"causes high Threat"

And still:

Holy Shield 1,5 Sek GCD 8-10 Sek
Conseceration 1,5 Sek 8 Sek
Judgement 1,5 Sek 8-10 Sek

Now you have 4,5 Sek GCDs and a at least 8 Sek Cycle. Even if you put Exorzism and Hammer you still are not bad with GCDs. Only with Level 75 it starts to become interesting. And by then you will have better Gear.
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Postby fiorina » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:37 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
fiorina wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
fiorina wrote:I there any calculation already up from what level of +Str/weapon dmg HotR won't be a waste of global cooldown as it is now? :)


o_O youre doing it wrong with the hammer.


well, could be... not sure about your hammer, but mine is hitting for like 200.. which is maybe 350 threat. Dunno, but I'd better renew holy shiled or consecrate in that GCD until I can get decent +str.
Or is damage based just on base weapon damage without +str considered is what you are trying to say? I dunno, really, so asking.


"causes high Threat"

And still:

Holy Shield 1,5 Sek GCD 8-10 Sek
Conseceration 1,5 Sek 8 Sek
Judgement 1,5 Sek 8-10 Sek

Now you have 4,5 Sek GCDs and a at least 8 Sek Cycle. Even if you put Exorzism and Hammer you still are not bad with GCDs. Only with Level 75 it starts to become interesting. And by then you will have better Gear.


Well, I am lvl75 and only gear around is Saronite... which adds... humph... what, 300 Str? So ok, it will hit for 350 instead.

Not saying not to use it, just now that ability seems rather weak threat wise to me. And well, assuming "shield bash" spam, sometimes I have to decide which GCD to use.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:40 am

- Instant Attack that does a Seal Proc (Mana, Light, Stun, Damage, DoT) on 3 Targets.
- Scales with our future Equip
- Scales with the new raid wide buffs
- "causes high threat" as description (bonus TPS!)
- Costs very little mana compared to the Bang it deliveres

I take it.

If you dont like it, don't specc it.

You would have a specc like ret without Crusader Strike. But heck, does work somehow. :roll:
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Postby fiorina » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:52 am

I think I understand those obvious things.

All I was asking for is if there is already some calculation up when it will start becoming viable since now it not worth the global CD most of the time.
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