Divine Strength vs. Shield Spec.
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jere wrote:
Saying "in a certain situation, X is not situational" is a bit wierd. I am talking in general. You will not always be running ret aura. Our aura is typically devotion aura. Ret paladins will provide retribution aura if available. The question is if they will be available. We can act like we know they will, but the thing is we don't know, period. If they aren't available, then it becomes a choice based on the situation (ala situational).
The effects of retribution aura depend on a lot of things, including enemy attack speed, the aura provider's stats, etc. They can't be modeled easily using one's own stats.
If you read my posts, you would see I was talking about stat scaling. It doesn't take into consideration threat from other sources and I even acknowledged that. My point is that currently Seals of the Pure cause our threat stats to scale better than 1HWS does, regardless of whether or not you have retribution aura up.
your point is that SotP causes threat stats to scale better ON A PORTION of our threat better than 1hws. Others are saying your comparison and numbers are pointless, as they aren't comparing full threat components. including sotr, and hotr.
sotp ONLY SCALES A PORTION, yet to be determined, of our max possible threat. 1hws scales all of our max possible threat, INCLUDING ret aura.
its quite obvious that if you have a ret in the raid you won't use ret aura. that doesn't mean ret aura is situational in a TPS discussion. you will have ret aura up, if you're concentrating on TPS, regardless of who provides it, and ret aura will scale with 1hws, not sotp. that is my point.
Holy wrath only works on undead/demons. It is situational.
I edited my post to reflect this long before you posted.
 thegreatheed
 Posts: 886
 Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:02 pm
A simple equation that will tell us whether SotP is better than 1HWS:
X is the percentage of our total threat our seals and Judgements provide.
If .05/0.15 = x, then they are equal.
If .05/0.15 > x, then 1HWS is best.
If .05/0.15 < x, then SotP is best.
X is the percentage of our total threat our seals and Judgements provide.
If .05/0.15 = x, then they are equal.
If .05/0.15 > x, then 1HWS is best.
If .05/0.15 < x, then SotP is best.

Norrath  Posts: 843
 Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:43 pm
 Location: Denmark
Norrath wrote:A simple equation that will tell us whether SotP is better than 1HWS:
X is the percentage of our total threat our seals and Judgements provide.
If .05/0.15 = x, then they are equal.
If .05/0.15 > x, then 1HWS is best.
If .05/0.15 < x, then SotP is best.
yes i agree completely.
i guess i don't understand what jere is trying to show with his numbers.
 thegreatheed
 Posts: 886
 Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:02 pm
thegreatheed wrote:i guess i don't understand what jere is trying to show with his numbers.
jere has taken a few different specs, given them some threat stats, and seen how much threat each point of a stat gives you.
For example, 1 strength will give you a bit more threat out of almost every ability except consecrate. That one strength can thus translate into a specific over all threat increase.
If you add SotP, that 1 strength will do more for your seals and result in a bigger over all threat increase than without talents. If you add 1hws instead you'll get another over all threat increase from that strength.
He did this for all threat stats (i.e. not just strength) to show what talents make your threat stats scale well and what how good each threat stat is in terms of tps per statpoint. It makes perfect sense and it doesn't leave some of your abilities out of the calculations.
 SmurfZG
 Posts: 495
 Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:51 am
SmurfZG wrote:thegreatheed wrote:i guess i don't understand what jere is trying to show with his numbers.
jere has taken a few different specs, given them some threat stats, and seen how much threat each point of a stat gives you.
For example, 1 strength will give you a bit more threat out of almost every ability except consecrate. That one strength can thus translate into a specific over all threat increase.
If you add SotP, that 1 strength will do more for your seals and result in a bigger over all threat increase than without talents. If you add 1hws instead you'll get another over all threat increase from that strength.
He did this for all threat stats (i.e. not just strength) to show what talents make your threat stats scale well and what how good each threat stat is in terms of tps per statpoint. It makes perfect sense and it doesn't leave some of your abilities out of the calculations.
I'd love to know how he arrives at those numbers, though.
1 AP contributes .35 damage to SoV's ticks. SotP increases this by .15. .35x1.15 = .4025. Jere said 1 AP contributes .4591 threat, .5077 with SotP. What is the correlation between these numbers?
As I said earlier, 1HWS is easy. It simply multiplies the base number by 1.05. But .4591x1.15 = .52797, not .5077.
I'm confused.

Norrath  Posts: 843
 Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:43 pm
 Location: Denmark
I cba to give the numbers, because I didn't calculate anything, and I can only assume he did it correctly since he usually does so. But to illustrate;
Each spell has different coefficients for ap. Say Sov/Jovs tps increases by 1000 for every point of ap, and the rest of the spells have coefficients of 0.01 tps per ap. These numbers are obviously nuts, but if they were so, then 15% on sov/jov would obviously get a lot more benefit from a strength increase than 5% on all the abilities which scale poorly.
The sov/jov coefficients are simply higher than most others, that's why the stats scale better with the sotp talent than 1hws. However, this is only for scaling, and does not take base dmg into account. So which talent is actually better would depend on how much threat stats you have.
Also, 1hws does indeed make strength scale 5% better.
As described by jere's table
0.4591*1.05=0.4820
However, SotP does not affect all dmg. So it does not make strength 15% better, hence the answer isn't 0.4591*1.15.
Each spell has different coefficients for ap. Say Sov/Jovs tps increases by 1000 for every point of ap, and the rest of the spells have coefficients of 0.01 tps per ap. These numbers are obviously nuts, but if they were so, then 15% on sov/jov would obviously get a lot more benefit from a strength increase than 5% on all the abilities which scale poorly.
The sov/jov coefficients are simply higher than most others, that's why the stats scale better with the sotp talent than 1hws. However, this is only for scaling, and does not take base dmg into account. So which talent is actually better would depend on how much threat stats you have.
Also, 1hws does indeed make strength scale 5% better.
As described by jere's table
 Code: Select all
AP
No Threat Talents: 0.4591
1HWS: 0.4820
0.4591*1.05=0.4820
However, SotP does not affect all dmg. So it does not make strength 15% better, hence the answer isn't 0.4591*1.15.
 SmurfZG
 Posts: 495
 Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:51 am
I already posted the coefficient for AP for SoV, and as I said, it doesn't match up. It's probably just me being math deficient, but I still cannot see where the numbers come from  and I can't see how you can just cook it down to one number when there are tons of different factors involved.
SoV has no less than five different coefficients for AP  and the Judgement has 6. .7 times x for the tick, .36 times 1.x where x is the number of applications of Holy Vengeance for the Judgement.
It's even worse for SP. 5 different coefficients for the tick, one for the proc, and 6 for the Judgement. .34 times x for the tick, .58 times 1.x for the Judgement, and .012 times weapon speed for the proc.
SoV has no less than five different coefficients for AP  and the Judgement has 6. .7 times x for the tick, .36 times 1.x where x is the number of applications of Holy Vengeance for the Judgement.
It's even worse for SP. 5 different coefficients for the tick, one for the proc, and 6 for the Judgement. .34 times x for the tick, .58 times 1.x for the Judgement, and .012 times weapon speed for the proc.

Norrath  Posts: 843
 Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:43 pm
 Location: Denmark
Mmh, looking good, thanks.
The only real mistake I see is that you haven't included all possible damage sources for 1HWS, which will skewer the numbers in SotP's favor. Hammer of Wrath, Retribution Aura, etc. They do scale with AP and SP, after all.
Besides those, there are all the nonscaling damage sources to consider  Thorns, Blessing of Sanctuary, and similar. They wouldn't have any purpose in a spreadsheet like yours, but they would still have an effect.
Of course, that's a rather monumental task, so I can understand why it's somewhat limited.
Actually, I see one other mistake in the first box  the SP coefficient for Seal of Vengeance should be .012, not .0312  unless there's something I've missed.
Thanks a bunch  now I can follow the logic in your thinking.
The only real mistake I see is that you haven't included all possible damage sources for 1HWS, which will skewer the numbers in SotP's favor. Hammer of Wrath, Retribution Aura, etc. They do scale with AP and SP, after all.
Besides those, there are all the nonscaling damage sources to consider  Thorns, Blessing of Sanctuary, and similar. They wouldn't have any purpose in a spreadsheet like yours, but they would still have an effect.
Of course, that's a rather monumental task, so I can understand why it's somewhat limited.
Actually, I see one other mistake in the first box  the SP coefficient for Seal of Vengeance should be .012, not .0312  unless there's something I've missed.
Thanks a bunch  now I can follow the logic in your thinking.

Norrath  Posts: 843
 Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:43 pm
 Location: Denmark
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