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Divine Strength vs. Shield Spec.

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5 pts. for Divine Strength or 8 pts. for Shield Specialization?

Divine Strength
48
83%
Shield Specialization
10
17%
 
Total votes : 58

Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:48 am

jere wrote:It affects both the seals and the judgements, which might indeed account for 30% of our threat. Neither of us know what the %'s look like yet. Saying it is going to be one way or the other is treading on thin ice.

I can tell you that with the current AP and SP and BV coefficients for our abilities, Seals of the Pure scales better than 1HWS in terms of TPS per stat ratio. I don't have any problem seeing that come out to being better than 1HWS depending on how our stats fall.


Seals and judgements together are about 35-40% of my threat currently. I would expect HotR and ShoR to be about equal contribution to Judgement how I use it, Consecration's contribution drops due to lower priority uptime, and if you use SoR you get some extra contribution when using HotR. White damage will be significantly higher than before as well, probably 10% of threat. At a rough estimate I would put seals+judgements at 25-35% of total threat in WotLK.

Anyway even if SotP ends up slightly better on single targets it falls flat for AoE, making 1HWS a better all-around choice. I'm still 0/5 on both for my preliminary spec though.

Edit: Underestimated a bit.
Last edited by PsiVen on Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:50 am

Dang, I thought my seals and judgement were around 50-60% of my single-target threat. I guess I should do some math.
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Postby jere » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:59 am

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Postby Airanna » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:11 am

You do realize you neglected to factor that 1HWPS also increases the damage of Consecrate, Shield of Righteousness, and Hammer of Righteousness? As well as Avenger's Shield and Holy Shield. And Exorcism. Holy Wrath as well, and Retribution Aura. SotP scales up 4 potential sources of threat by 15% vs. scaling all of our possible sources of threat by 5%.
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Postby Widdox » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:18 am

I think the issue is that we now have 2 new threat gen abilities that will be affected by 1HWS and will not be changed by SotP. Most threat rotations I've seen seem to concentrate on using HoTR and ShoTR everytime its up. Since we don't have the exact data we can't make a determination, but here's some simple math.

---------------------------------
1HWS increases all damage by 10%.
SotP increases dmg done by SoV/JoV or SoR/JoR by 30%.

If Seal/Judge is > 1/3rd of our damage then SotP is better than 1HWS.
If Seal/Judge is < 1/3rd of our damage then 1HWS is better than SotP.


If we go with a set amount of dmg done and apply the numbers you will see what I mean. 10000 dmg done over the course of a fight.
1HWS
---------
10000 * 1.1 (1HWS) = 11000 dmg

SotP
----------
10000 / 3 * 1.3 = 4333.33
10000 - (10000 / 3) = 6666.66 dmg
TOTAL: ---------------------- = 10999.99 dmg
Last edited by Widdox on Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jere » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:18 am

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Postby Norrath » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:55 am

Even if Seals and Judgements account for one third of our threat (which I really do not think is likely, taking HotR, ShoR, Consecration, and reflective damage into account), it would only EQUAL 1HWS for threat.
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Postby Questioner » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:02 pm

I never said 1HS or SotP was bad for threat gen, I just question the need for either if you can pick up more defensive talents with those 5 points...

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Postby jere » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:13 pm

Questioner wrote:I never said 1HS or SotP was bad for threat gen, I just question the need for either if you can pick up more defensive talents with those 5 points...

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Postby Airanna » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

To be honest, I see no defensive talents I'd be missing out on if I take both at 80. Unless Shield Spec is changed to affect BV from Str, and even then I'm hard pressed to take 8 points into talents for a threat boost and minor mitigation boost. Spell Warding, maybe, but I can make room for 2 points easily.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:43 pm

jere wrote:
Not really. I left out exorcism, holy wrath, and retribution aura because they are situational. Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of the Righteous, Holy Shield, and Consecration are all accounted for.



in threat situations, :EDIT: bleh, just found out hw tooltip is just misworded ((holy wrath (now damages ALL targets, stuns undead/demons) and)) retribution aura are NOT situational. we already decided the situation, by calculation threat coefficients. so, leaving out threat abilities in a TPS calculation is not correct.

i do consider exorcism situational, as it only damages undead/demons, so i do not fault you for leaving that particular spell out.

:edit: but my point stands for ret aura
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:55 pm

<sigh>
We sitll have to know what the hell "this ability deals extra threat" in HotR means, same for Shield Slap.

THEN we can account. Pretending neither to other than holy*1.9 threat, let's see...

take X damage, untalented
Make it 1,05X, 1HWS
THen pick X and make it X-(Seal+Judge)+(seal+judge)*1,15

if X-(Seal+Judge)+(seal+judge)*1,15 > 1,05X, then Seals of the Pure > 1handed weapon spec.

BUT
We don't know yet how ShoR and HotR work. When we do, we can make a more precise calculation.
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Postby jere » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:55 pm

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Postby Norrath » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:37 pm

Snake-Aes, the threat coefficient on HotR and ShoR means nothing for 1HWS -- it's pure damage. 1HWS won't affect it.

Jere, Retribution Aura is still affected by 1HWS. So is Thorns, for that matter. It increases all damage while wielding a one-handed weapon.

How did you come to those TPS coefficients you posted earlier? Maybe I am just math deficient, but I can't make sense of them. For 1HWS, it's obvious, but SotP? I also don't see where you get the base numbers from in the first place.
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Postby Amran20 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:47 pm

I'm sorry, but to me, SotP, Div Strength and 1HWS are ALL going in my spec.

Redoubt and Shield Spec: Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Maybe if they lowered the talent point requirements, sure, but I think the 8 talent points are MUCH better used elsewhere. However, if our Tier gear is heavy BV, this could sway favor back this direction. I just have a feeling though, and I think that these two talents will not be worth it in the long run for 8 points.
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