Remove Advertisements

WotLK, Raiding and multiple spec's

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

WotLK, Raiding and multiple spec's

Postby praetorae » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:34 pm

I was day-dreaming about WotLK today while pretending to be doing my day-job and was just ruminating about the changes to raiding that could feasibly come about with Blizzard giving us two 'specs' that we can switch between.

Blizzard have made it quite clear that they want all of the various raid roles to feel more fun and not to 'gimp' a player outside of a raid environment, the increased DPS blizz are implementing into tank and healer specs plays into this. The idea that we can switch spec and go 'PvP' outside of raids or just go 'DPS' to get some good solid grinding done will also make playing a raiding tank that bit more enjoyable and might help with 'tank burnout'.

However, I was just wondering what implications this dual spec idea has for your average raid and specifically 'subbing' (the practice of min/maxing certain encounters by having different classes/specs sit out or come in for various bosses).

I can see the idea of having dual specs really cutting down on this practice, for example (and I know SW is sort of a bad instance to use to illustrate my point but it was the one that came to mind 1st) ;

Kalecgos - most guilds would take 3 tanks for this encounter (I have heard of 2 tank kills but suspect that this tactic is available only to the top top guilds). However, the very next boss Brutallus is usually fought with only 2 tanks. Due to the nature of the Brut fight having a 3rd tank go into gimpy healing mode, or loldps would really hurt the raids chances at seeing a kill.

However, if the dual spec idea pans out and if its limitations are not too, ahem, limiting it would be feasible for the 3rd tank from the kalecgos fight to simply switch to spec No.2 and step in as an extra healer/DPS and be able to do the job required of them by the encounter to the best of their classes abilties.

Obviously this is not just limited to tanks either. Encounter needs an extra healer? - get that ele shaman to go resto. Nasty enrage timer on the boss? - go go gadget retri spec etc.etc.

I know Blizz have been against the 'dual spec' idea for a while and I have to wonder what has really changed their mind. But, I can only see it as a good thing in terms of PvE raiding and it might mean that more guilds can min/max encounters in terms of raid members while not having to have a ton of IMBA geared alts or a extra-large and extremely dedicated player base.

My only fears are that Blizz will put some nasty restrictions on the 'dual spec' change, something like a 24hr CD springs to mind.

Hmm, this post went on rather longer than anticipated....I guess what I was really trying to say is 'Dual specs' good idea/bad idea? and can anyone else think of any major (or minor) implications for the PvE scene?

Oh, and of course are there any ideas about how this is going to be implemented in game from our lovely (but also envied) Beta testers?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
User avatar
praetorae
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:17 am

Postby Zalaria » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:44 pm

I really hope they don't do it with NPCs, because that's barely better than the current situation. What I'm hoping for is something you can do anywhere, with a half-hour cooldown and maybe a 5-10g reagent. The cooldown is long enough that you won't do it willy-nilly, but short enough that you can switch for one boss and back for the next. The reagent helps with the loss of the respec fees as far as removing money from the economy. Since its so easy to swap, more people using reagents might end up taking more money out from this kind of system anyway.


On the other side, I kinda want it to not be so easy. I'm currently relegated to healbot who occasionally tanks (felmyst). I'm sure there are others out there in similar situations, and I don't want that to be more common in wotlk.
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - It's time to roll the dice
User avatar
Zalaria
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:27 am

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:48 pm

Zalaria wrote:I really hope they don't do it with NPCs, because that's barely better than the current situation. What I'm hoping for is something you can do anywhere, with a half-hour cooldown and maybe a 5-10g reagent. The cooldown is long enough that you won't do it willy-nilly, but short enough that you can switch for one boss and back for the next. The reagent helps with the loss of the respec fees as far as removing money from the economy. Since its so easy to swap, more people using reagents might end up taking more money out from this kind of system anyway.


On the other side, I kinda want it to not be so easy. I'm currently relegated to healbot who occasionally tanks (felmyst). I'm sure there are others out there in similar situations, and I don't want that to be more common in wotlk.


Well the way to handle that healbot issue, is to have a smaller disparity between trash tanks and boss tanks in terms of numbers. Then change the boss and add composition so that different tanks are better for different things.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9666
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Makaijin » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:20 pm

Like I mentioned before in another post, personally even if blizz do implement the 2 spec system, don't expect it to be changeable on the fly. It certainly won't be switchable anywhere and anytime (out of combat at least), and even if you do it'll impose some form of cooldown. You will be forced to at least go to a city, or at least an inn that allows "resting".

People seem to think the 2 spec system will allow easy respeccing on the fly. But the way I see it, many people's main complaint about respeccing is not because they have to go to a city, but because it's a money sink. It'll probably be something like this. You get 2 templates that allows you to switch between for free. But if you want to change the points in any of the templates you pay a respec fee. To switch between your template, you talk to your trainer NPC.

This achieves a few things. The switching of 2 templates won't be a money sink no more, as most people that spend a lot on respecs tend to respec the same few specs anyway. And by forcing you to go back to the NPC, it still keeps it's original intention of making you planning your specs. If the 2 spec system is truely "on the fly" then there is no point for blizzard in littering various hybrid talents that exists in every class. I mean, why even put out of purpose talents in trees when everyone can just "switch on the fly" and equip the appropriate gear for said spec?
Image
Makaijin
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:23 am

Postby Vorps » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:55 pm

I think with the introduction of Warlock summoning players from anywhere straight into dungeons, restricting the spec swap to towns at zero cost and no cooldown would be just fine.

What has always been more of an issue to me is the cost being a limitation on how often you desire to alter your role/spec. I would like to go PvP as Ret for 15 mins while waiting for a group to get together that I will tank for. Or switch to healing / tanking / dps depending on what a group/raid desires, without having to feel obligated to spend excess amounts of gold.

But if Blizzard wants to go and allow us to flip specs out of combat, anywhere, for no cost and no cooldown. That'd be totally cool as well.
Vorps
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:13 am

Postby Hammerjudge » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:04 am

Someone suggested elsewhere (Makaijin maybe) it might be done by a 'talent stable' you check in and out of: That idea makes sense to me. I do not expect you will be able to switch inside a raid.
Hammerjudge
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:36 pm

Postby Constantine » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:09 am

I personally do not think they will implement the dual-spec idea in any form. I will be the first one to say 'awesome!' if they do, but think about some of the other changes they are making...

1) Higher overall DPS for tank specs and heal specs
2) New alilities to allow certian classes to fill new roles (shamans poly frog hex comes to mind)
3) Changing existing specs to cope with thier previous disadvantages
4) Merging spell and melee crit/hit/haste

And thats just what I could think of in 30 seconds or so. It seems like they are doing alot to make each spec viable for exactly what it is supposed to be for. Giving us the ability to change specs, especially on the fly, seems to be going against the grain of the changes we know they're making.
No armory link necessary. I am so awesome that if you clicked my armory link, your computer would explode.
Or perhaps whatever the opposite of that statement would be.
User avatar
Constantine
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:15 am
Location: Midwest, US

Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:18 am

I wouldn't expect them to be on the fly....I'd expect them to require going to a trainer at least, and maybe with a small cooldown on top of that. Blizzard's said they want to make this happen in some for or another, so I don't think "it's not going to happen in any form" is a realistic projection at this point (though like most things, certainly not impossible).
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Postby praetorae » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:50 am

I'm sure I saw a link to a blue post somewhere around here which basically said "Yes, we are gonna do it - give us a moment will ya!"

Going back to the idea that Blizzard appears to be fleshing out the various classes/specs to be able to 'almost' change roles mid fight - I can see this being useful for the next lvl of content and more complicated boss fights that they develop.

For example, atm in the Karathress fight once your done tanking whichever boss your on, you are stuck in Prot gear. At this point the new talent Touched by the Light would come in really handy allowing you to still make a valid contribution to the fight rather than the pitiful FoL spam or judgement-bot that are 2 of the current options.

However, now your raid has reached Vashj and really only 2 tanks are needed. No problem, you switch specs completely as well as switching your gear and become a fully rounded raid member again - simply performing a different role as the encounter warrants.

Basically I can see the new talents being added allowing Blizzard to design boss fights with these in mind allowing for, hopefully, more challenging content. However the ability to completely change spec would allow blizzard more flexibility in designing entire dungeons and make going from a '1 tank boss' to a '3 tank boss' much easier for your average guild.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
User avatar
praetorae
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:17 am

Postby Splug » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:52 am

Someone a while back suggested having X tallents that are "hard investments" and the rest being flexible between the specs. For example, requiring 41 in prot but being able to move the others. That would go a long way toward encouraging more hybrid tallents deep in trees, such that healing-prot might provide more utility (BoK, imp devo aura) than healing-holy and a different playstyle (IE: the larger crits), and would be possible to take advantage of by moving the defensive tallents from retribution over to early-holy tallents. Likewise, moving some of the deep-prot tanking tallents and deflection into early ret would give some increase to damage, maybe even allowing a HotR/SotR build to clock in halfway decently (essentially enforcing a 1h/shield "dps" build, unlike ret's obvious preference toward 2h dps).

The obvious corrolaries are the holy-based "shockadin" (already exists but seriously needs help without sanc aura), holy tanking via primarily consecration (and possibly self-healing on magic-heavy encounters such as M'uru void spawns, where losing block/parry/dodge is acceptable), ret's "melee-healer" setup with sheath of light and reactive-heal 51-pointer, and potentially a ret-tank based on cranking up vengeance and doing more total damage with a lower percentage as holy.

I think that's the direction Blizzard is trying to go in (especially given the feral and deathknight trees with multiple-role capabilities internal to each tree), but they're not quite there yet with paladins/warriors. We'll have to see how they play it out. It makes some sense in theory, but will hinge upon itemization as well as possibly later-beta-phase tree changes.

-Splug
Active raid character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... an&n=Spyte
255 characters is not enough to fit my alts' armories in.
User avatar
Splug
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:16 am


Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?