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wotlk? will ret be able to tank at all 70-80?

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Postby Macha » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:00 am

People who think you ever needed to be tankspecced to do nonheroic instances, both at 70 and while leveling, really make me laugh a lot.

These instances never were that hard. The only somewhat hard ones were SH and SL, that's it.

I dare say, ret is going to be far better for 5s, heroics, and maybe even some 10s.


if tanking 10mans means doing badge runs with completely overgeared groups, then yes.
If tanking 10mans means doing progress tanking in unfarmed, unknown progress 10 man instances, then hell no.

It's like ZA with a blue/epic group just after Kara. You would need the mitigation.
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:53 pm

Macha wrote:People who think you ever needed to be tankspecced to do nonheroic instances, both at 70 and while leveling, really make me laugh a lot.

These instances never were that hard. The only somewhat hard ones were SH and SL, that's it.

I dare say, ret is going to be far better for 5s, heroics, and maybe even some 10s.


if tanking 10mans means doing badge runs with completely overgeared groups, then yes.
If tanking 10mans means doing progress tanking in unfarmed, unknown progress 10 man instances, then hell no.

It's like ZA with a blue/epic group just after Kara. You would need the mitigation.


Agreed. People seem to forget that there are two parts to a tank. Maintaining threat and mitigating damage. Part of a Paladins extensive AE threat tools is the ability to mitigate a tremendous amount of that damage through Holy Shield and Redoubt. A Retribution Paladin would need to sacrifice important Retribution talents, thus removing their ability to tank effectively.
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Postby Jtree » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:38 pm

Macha wrote:It's like ZA with a blue/epic group just after Kara. You would need the mitigation.


Tried that the day ZA came out. Never got past the first pair of bear riders.

While off-spec tanking in 5's looks like it's gonna be viable, at least for folks who know what gear to grab, those of us who are specced properly are probably gonna be able to jump right into heroics with that same gear upon dinging 80. I'd be very disappointed if it doesn't work out that way.
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Postby Zonzede » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:32 pm

Lemondish wrote:
Macha wrote:People who think you ever needed to be tankspecced to do nonheroic instances, both at 70 and while leveling, really make me laugh a lot.

These instances never were that hard. The only somewhat hard ones were SH and SL, that's it.

I dare say, ret is going to be far better for 5s, heroics, and maybe even some 10s.


if tanking 10mans means doing badge runs with completely overgeared groups, then yes.
If tanking 10mans means doing progress tanking in unfarmed, unknown progress 10 man instances, then hell no.

It's like ZA with a blue/epic group just after Kara. You would need the mitigation.


Agreed. People seem to forget that there are two parts to a tank. Maintaining threat and mitigating damage. Part of a Paladins extensive AE threat tools is the ability to mitigate a tremendous amount of that damage through Holy Shield and Redoubt. A Retribution Paladin would need to sacrifice important Retribution talents, thus removing their ability to tank effectively.


As a ret the only mitigation talents you have to mis out on are Holy Shield and Ardent defender. You also have to sack a lot of stamina. The rest of those deep talents are all threat and efficiency based.

Maybe I keep wording myself wrong. Prot will still be the progression raid maintank spec for paladins. For almost all other roles though ( 5 man normal/heroics, second threat tanking, trash tanking, add tanking, general offtanking, farmed content tanking) a Ret in proper tanking gear has the tools they need to perform just as well if not better than prot. With a gear swap, they also become very competent DPSers.
For those of us who actually are the true Maintankadin, whatever. We'll still be speccing deep prot for those essentials. But I'm just pointing out that if you're not one of the lucky ones, or if that just isn't your cup of tea, there's another spec that may offer you what you need.
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Postby Macha » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:49 pm

Zonzede wrote:As a ret the only mitigation talents you have to mis out on are Holy Shield and Ardent defender. You also have to sack a lot of stamina. The rest of those deep talents are all threat and efficiency based.


Just because you say "only" does not mean that Holy Shield alone wouldn't make us far better at mitigation than Ret could ever hope to be, especially with the increase in BV due to Strength.
On top of it, there's the stamina, and Judgement of the Just(why is everyone forgetting this again? 10man instances might not have tc-specced warriors, ferals, or deathknights). In 10mans and lower, Ret is probably going to take about 25-35% more damage than a real tank in the same gear.

Quite simply: A ret Paladin is a poor man's tank. You can sure take easy stuff when needed, but when something non-trivial comes, Ret tanking is simply weak, every actual tank would be a far better choice. Which doesn't mean you can't do things - but then, we can also tank without pants/skirt. And that's essentially what Ret tanking is.

As much as I like men in kilts, this isn't really on par with actual tanking ;) It'll just do in a fix. Like it does now.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:02 am

Macha wrote:
Zonzede wrote:As a ret the only mitigation talents you have to mis out on are Holy Shield and Ardent defender. You also have to sack a lot of stamina. The rest of those deep talents are all threat and efficiency based.


Just because you say "only" does not mean that Holy Shield alone wouldn't make us far better at mitigation than Ret could ever hope to be, especially with the increase in BV due to Strength.
On top of it, there's the stamina, and Judgement of the Just(why is everyone forgetting this again? 10man instances might not have tc-specced warriors, ferals, or deathknights). In 10mans and lower, Ret is probably going to take about 25-35% more damage than a real tank in the same gear.

Quite simply: A ret Paladin is a poor man's tank. You can sure take easy stuff when needed, but when something non-trivial comes, Ret tanking is simply weak, every actual tank would be a far better choice. Which doesn't mean you can't do things - but then, we can also tank without pants/skirt. And that's essentially what Ret tanking is.

As much as I like men in kilts, this isn't really on par with actual tanking ;) It'll just do in a fix. Like it does now.


Well the 70-80 path is easy though. In fact, so far I've been tanking in pretty much full DPS gear, I could care less how much damage I take. I'm too busy trying to dump out threat to keep up with some of the unbalanced skills atm.

As far as 10/25 mans. You can use ret as a trash tank if you wanted too. Sure he's going to take more damage, but as long as he doesn't die, it doesn't matter. Then on the boss, where it does matter you have a more efficient use of a slot. I don't think anyone is suggeting they'll be progression tanking staples, hell protection paladins are still having a hard time pulling that off, but good defensive plate armor gives them, and the group, a little versatility if needed.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:31 am

Feh. Ret can tank just fine.
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Postby Macha » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:36 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well the 70-80 path is easy though.


Yes, but that's not the topic. The topic here is if Ret is better as a tank than Prot in heroics/10mans. Which is false unless all you're doing is running content you outgear.

Since you can do leveling instances with hunter pets or rogues as tanks, Ret can do it fine. As I said above, by the way.
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Postby Maihes » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:08 pm

Macha wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well the 70-80 path is easy though.


Yes, but that's not the topic. The topic here is if Ret is better as a tank than Prot in heroics/10mans. Which is false unless all you're doing is running content you outgear.

Since you can do leveling instances with hunter pets or rogues as tanks, Ret can do it fine. As I said above, by the way.


I didn't see any where that Prot was worse then Ret for heroics / 10 mans on non out geared content....
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Postby Splug » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:23 pm

Dorvan wrote:
fiorina wrote:Thats actually a very good question. Let me test it tomorrow.

Problem with instances which are up so far is that they could be tanked by rogue or hunter pet more or less if they have Tier6 :/ There is nothing like original heroic Shattered Halls yet.


I don't remember doing the original H SH at level 67 :P
I did... as arms. Wouldn't be suprised if ret could handle something comparable in WotLK.

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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:59 pm

Macha wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well the 70-80 path is easy though.


Yes, but that's not the topic. The topic here is if Ret is better as a tank than Prot in heroics/10mans. Which is false unless all you're doing is running content you outgear.

Since you can do leveling instances with hunter pets or rogues as tanks, Ret can do it fine. As I said above, by the way.


The title and the OP would suggest otherwise

any thoughts on tanking as ret with new wotlk changes while leveling from 70-80?


I have no idea why there would be a discussion about Ret being a better tank than protection. That's akin to Protection pallys being better healers than Holy pallys, it's pretty nonsensical and not really worth a discussion.
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