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Tanking should be like barbecue.

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Tanking should be like barbecue.

Postby Whimsy » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:41 am

Stay with me here...

If you ever want to see theorycrafting IRL, head to any barbecue competition anywhere in the United States.

There are no "cookie cutter" builds for a BBQ. Of course you've got the major classes to consider. Pork vs beef. Mustard vs. tomato sauce. Rub vs. marinade.

But even within each major class there are a million different interpretations of the "right" way to do things. Gear, timing, ingredients, fuel, methods are constantly discussed and debated. Even the great masters of the art constantly analyze and refine details.

And most pit-bosses will admit that they enjoy the analysis and debate and discussion as much as they enjoy cooking! (Sound familiar?)

Tanks SHOULD have bloated trees. We SHOULD have lots of options. Expanding our options creates greater opportunities for debate and analysis and discovery.

I hope this is a sign that cookie-cutter builds are going away. We're seeing expanded options for lots of classes. So when you complain about our 'bloated' new talent trees, consider the alternative. How much fun would the game be if we all played exactly the same way?
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Postby Petrus » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:25 am

Unless there is more than one 'best' way to do things, people will still spec for that 'best' way. However, depending on the gap between how good 'best' is and how good the next best is, you may see a lot of variation in spec.

Take mages, for example. At T6 level, 2/48/11 is the well accepted gold standard for mage dps. However, 40/0/21 isn't all that far behind it, and as you go down to the T4 content level, the specs get closer together, and you're looking at 10/48/3, 0/0/61, 10/0/51, 17/0/44 (though it's more pvp oriented), 40/21/0, and a lot more specs that don't have a lot of major problems and can still put out enough dps for the content. The best will be the best, but when the second best isn't far behind (especially when it's not a noticable margin, as it perhaps can be with tanking because you don't have a dps meter measuring your performace) you'll end up with more variation.
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Postby Candiru » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:26 am

You wouldn't want to have to choose between the Bread or the meat though would you?

Choosing between relish and onions etc is all well and good, but the basics should be there for everyone.

I support having a non-bloated prot tree so that Lay on hands + Seals of pure vs Deflection + imp.judgment or getting both sets and having a very bare prot tree are all viable.

You do indeed want some choice, but you want all the basics to be gettable easily :)
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Postby Jikozani » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:48 pm

It's nice to have many interesting talents to play around with.

However some things in our prot tree are plain silly. Such as the stamina increase being spread over 2 talents (which is basically just the result of quick, poor problem fixing on bliz's part. Both sacred duty and combat expertise got their stamina component after excessive whining on our part concerning health, while neither talent was originally planned with that in mind).
Or holy shield requiring 3 points total. I'm not sure what exactly bliz was thinking when they added improved holy shield (address threat issues? did they really think about distinguishing us in regards to crushing blows or that was just luck?) but they could have simply added the effects on the spell itself. Unless the problem for them was that we weren't wasting too many points around. It's plain silly, because it's not improving a base spell, or a spell in another tier of talents (so as to make a difference between people going further down the tree). No, it's 2 points improving the spell that's fucking next to them.
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Postby Ahms » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:29 pm

i like the new options as well. i'm content on being indecisive on what i pick- it's just more fun/interesting to sort of personalize your build but still know you're viable

the only problem i have is with redundant talents. there's two -mana cost talents, several talents that just improve +% damage ability, etc. i feel those could be condensed and some more cool/unique stuff put instead. same thing in ret, there's 3 talents to improve retribution aura. it should at the most be two (ie combine one of them into the other)
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Postby Kivas » Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:34 pm

There should be more variation, but I would like to think that those points that differ would in either holy or ret.

i can dream can't I.



also... I'm now hungry.
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Re: Tanking should be like barbecue.

Postby Paladei » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:24 pm

Whimsy wrote:Stay with me here...

If you ever want to see theorycrafting IRL, head to any barbecue competition anywhere in the United States.

There are no "cookie cutter" builds for a BBQ. Of course you've got the major classes to consider. Pork vs beef. Mustard vs. tomato sauce. Rub vs. marinade.

But even within each major class there are a million different interpretations of the "right" way to do things. Gear, timing, ingredients, fuel, methods are constantly discussed and debated. Even the great masters of the art constantly analyze and refine details.

And most pit-bosses will admit that they enjoy the analysis and debate and discussion as much as they enjoy cooking! (Sound familiar?)

Tanks SHOULD have bloated trees. We SHOULD have lots of options. Expanding our options creates greater opportunities for debate and analysis and discovery.

I hope this is a sign that cookie-cutter builds are going away. We're seeing expanded options for lots of classes. So when you complain about our 'bloated' new talent trees, consider the alternative. How much fun would the game be if we all played exactly the same way?


I was hoping this was going to say "slow and delicious."
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