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So what weapon for 3.0?..

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Postby Norrath » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:44 pm

Candiru wrote:Actually, when the 51point hammer is fixed to be normalised, we won't depend on Weapon speed very much at all (unless we use SoR)

This is because Hammer applies a seal proc, which will do damage depending on weapon speed, but hits every 6 seconds.

This means that if you are using SoV, you will be largely unaffected by weapon speed (other than the base weapon damage being higher) while if you use SoR you will want an slow mainhand.

By my calculations, even with 0 AP it takes a 5.0 speed weapon before SoR = SoV. If you add in reckoning then it will be less, but for nearly all practical purposes SoV will be better. This then means you want a nice fast weapon to stack it faster!


This same effect will also make ret want a slow 2H, even for SoB since the seal procs from crusader strike and divine storm will be effectively "ppm" and so want a slow weapon like for SoC.


Even a normalized HotR favors a slow weapon.

Here's how a normalized 1-H attack works:

Weapon damage + (AP/14) * 2.4

A non-normalized weapon deals damage according to

Weapon damage + (AP/14) * weapon speed

Average weapon damage = weapon DPS * weapon speed.

Assuming a The Brutalizer, we're looking at ~160 damage, on average. Take a The Decapitator, and you get ~240 damage. Despite a 8 DPS difference and 16 ilevels, the Decapitator is better than the Brutalizer for HotR.... and that's WITHOUT considering whether or not it's normalized. The non-normalization simply shoots it out of proportions.
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Postby Melathys » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:44 pm

halabar wrote:
Melathys wrote:I just picked up the axe from kael in h.mgt. nice speed/dps, agi/stam and a gem slot...with a 15stam gem would give it 30 stamina.

sure, s2 weapon is probably better, but Im figuring on stockpiling honor for the expansion.


There was a blue post with a cryptic comment about the honor system, so don't plan TOO much on stuff from honor....


We are still working out the details on how we want to handle honor/arena points, we'll have more details soon enough though


not sure whether or not to be concerned....guess I'll stockpile til we hear something more.
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Postby Arthaal » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:44 pm

Blinkstrike imo... it's not like I'm gonna miss the 30 stam I lost while level grinding with 18kHP as prot.
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Postby Candiru » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:20 am

Norrath wrote:
Even a normalized HotR favors a slow weapon.


I did say that (other than the higher base damage) speed didn't matter!

With some AP the difference becomes negligible, and a faster weapon will stack SoV faster, resulting in faster initial threat. Once you have 5 stacks up, you could change to a slower weapon for a little bit more threat from Hammer.

Hammer will be normalised, they have said that along with obliterate and some other instant strikes they want them normalised, but haven't got it working for non-physical damage yet.
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Postby Norrath » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:27 am

Which is misleading. We want a slow weapon due to higher base damage.

No matter how much AP you stack, it will remain an issue. A higher base damage weapon will still be better for HotR, and won't matter for any of our other skills.
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Postby Makaijin » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:16 am

When and if it does get normalised (which i think it will) the weapon speed will have a much smaller impact. It still does favour a slower weapon, but I wouldn't go out of my way to use a slower weapon when I get hold of a higher DPS weapon but with a faster attack speed.
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Postby Norrath » Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:36 am

Given that white damage is as small a part of our threat as it is -- especially since it is not affected by Righteous Fury -- going for a faster weapon with better DPS rather than a slower weapon with a higher damage range would be a detriment to your TPS. None of our skills scale with weapon DPS, but some of them do scale with weapon speed.

Really, unless the faster weapon has a better damage range... you're doing yourself a disservice.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:13 am

Doesn't even SoR/SoV do damage based on the weapon speed? I don't really see the point on a fast weapon as long as HotR scales off weapon damage. I don't see a way around it other than changing HotR's damage to have it's own base damage + ap instead of weapon damage + ap
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Postby Candiru » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:24 am

The more AP you stack the less of a % of the damage the base damage of the weapon will be. Faster weapons stack SoV faster, and so will be preferred (at least for the start of a fight) over slower weapons IMHO. Fast weapons will also give more SoV "top-up" procs, which dosen't scale with weapon speed?

Slow weapons will do more TPS once you have 5stack of Vengeance up, or if you are using SoR, SoW, SoL or SoJ.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:30 am

Yeah, but how much AP? we don't know yet how much ap we'll actually have.
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Postby Norrath » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:41 am

Candiru wrote:The more AP you stack the less of a % of the damage the base damage of the weapon will be. Faster weapons stack SoV faster, and so will be preferred (at least for the start of a fight) over slower weapons IMHO. Fast weapons will also give more SoV "top-up" procs, which dosen't scale with weapon speed?

Slow weapons will do more TPS once you have 5stack of Vengeance up, or if you are using SoR, SoW, SoL or SoJ.

Yes, if you're concerned about stacking SoV, you can use a fast weapon, but it won't out-do HotR for threat.

Really, there's almost no point to using a fast weapon over a slower. Stacking SoV faster is the only one I can see, and it's just not enough. SoV's proc does scale with weapon speed, as does Reckoning, HotR, SoR, etc.

Note that Seal of Wisdom and Seal of Light do not scale with weapon speed at all, but with AP and SP.
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Postby Candiru » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:45 am

SoW and SoL DO scale with weapon speed.

This is because Hammer happens every 6 seconds, and applies a weapon hit.

This gives ppm seals an extra chance to proc.

This means that the use of hammer in your rotation causes SoB, SoW, SoR and SoL to scale with weapon speed as well!
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Postby Norrath » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:56 am

No, they do not scale with weapon speed. They are not PPM any longer; they have a flat 50% chance to proc.

For one thing, the hammer happens every six seconds whether you have a fast or a slow weapon.

Secondly, the effect can only occur once every four seconds.

ETA: GAH. Wrote minutes instead of seconds. >_<
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Postby Candiru » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:22 am

Thats judgemnt of wisdom/light which are 50% chance, the seals are still PPM I think?

The way instant attacks work with ppm abilities is the proc chance on the instant attack depends on the base speed of the weapon.

So with a 20ppm proc and a 1.5 speed weapon the chance is 0.5.

with a 3.0 speed weapon the chance is 1.

Since hammer hits every 6 seconds that means that you get a proc every time with the 3.0 speed weapon, but only half the time with the 1.5.

SoR damage will also happen every 6 seconds, but the damage will be larger with a slower weapon.

So SoL, SoW, SoR, SoB and SoC will all scale with weapon speed thanks to hammer!


As an example with ret, SoC is 7ppm.

However, you now get a chance to proc every 6 and 10s with crusader and divine storm.

This means with a 3.8 speed weapon you get 44% chance to proc, giving (60/6+60/10)*0.44=7 EXTRA procs.

This gives 14 SoC procs / min, rather than the normal 7! (and the damage of each one is more with a slower weapon)

With a fast 2.0 speed weapon (fasted 2H in game I think) you get a 23% proc chance giving only 3.7 extra procs ppm.

This will only give 10.7 ppm, and each proc will do much less damage than with the 3.8 speed weapon.

SoB will also follow a dependance on WeaponSpeed for similar reasons(the extra 16 procs a minute from storm/strike will do more damage the slower the weapon)
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Postby Norrath » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:47 am

Candiru wrote:Thats judgemnt of wisdom/light which are 50% chance, the seals are still PPM I think?

Hm, that's true, I suppose. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Still, it doesn't change anything with regards to whether a slow or fast weapon is preferable.
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