Prot needs some mana regen (?)

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Postby Nich » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:35 pm

Lore wrote:Spiritual Attunement + JoW scaling = winnar

Has anyone run some numbers to check average mana returned from JoW, in BC and in WotLK?

ie does JoW scaling make up for the 'can't proc more than once ever x seconds' component.
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Postby Corlas » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:58 pm

Tev wrote:Seriously though, Tanks aren't asking for scaling on rage/mana regen from tanking, just a normalization so we don't have to downgear. It looks like this shouldn't be an issue for DKs since their rune/runic power system seems fairly normalized, if not somewhat scaling based on gear.


Warriors have this problem a lot less than Paladins. On my Warrior, if I tank something where mobs aren't hitting me as hard, I can put on more DPS gear and get more rage from my white damage, or I can dual wield tank if I really outgear/level it. This is also going to get better in Lich King, where Warriors will do even more damage and so get even more rage.

The only way for Paladins to accomplish something similar is to wear crappier gear and negate any benefits of their hard-won epics by actually TRYING to get hit more often and hit harder. Which makes things needlessly harder on your healers. This is just a really stupid idea for a tanking spec.

I know people love taking Pallies for 5 mans, but I much prefer tanking a 5 man on my Warrior (in his mixed gear of some Kara drops, some Heroic drops, and a couple blues) than I do tanking on my Paladin (in T4/ZA gear with some SSC/TK and BT level badge items). Everything goes much quicker and smoother on my Warrior, and I don't have to stop to drink constantly. On my Warrior, I can basically just chain pull everything. On my Paladin, the only fights I end with a decent sized mana pool are the tough ones. Easy fights actually make the instance more of a pain to run.

A tank should NEVER have to gear to take MORE damage to make an instance EASIER to tank. It's pretty absurd.

Prot needs something that gives mana back that doesn't inversely scale with gear. JoW is nice, but I don't see how it can be enough. SA is cool, but it relies on a second person to work, which Rage does not, it gets worse as your gear improves much faster than Rage generation gets worse.
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Postby Korangar » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:08 pm

Something like...this?

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... hp?t=11146

People seemed to not be thrilled with it, or at least the vocal ones weren't. But the simple fact is, it rewards you for being a better tank, unlike the current model.
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Postby Corlas » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:20 pm

Korangar wrote:Something like...this?

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... hp?t=11146

People seemed to not be thrilled with it, or at least the vocal ones weren't. But the simple fact is, it rewards you for being a better tank, unlike the current model.


Something like that would be great yeah. Although the more I think about it, the more I think something active and not reactive would be better. This would also allow for help when trying to keep secondary aggro, or when soloing, or DPSing on fights that you're not tanking or that don't need a tank.

In fights like Shade in Kara on my Warrior I can put on DPS gear, go into Berserker stance and have a lot of a fun. On my Pally when he's Prot, I can either do crappy heals that my healers already have taken care of and so not contribute at all, or do crappy damage while hoarding my mana and being afraid to use any abilities.

I realize things will change a lot in Lich King, but I can't really see how Prot's mana issues will be solved. I can see how Ret's will be. I can see how Holy's (very limited) mana problems are solved, but Prot still seems to be reliant on others. Even something as simple as a good amount of MP/5 based on a tanking stat would be great.
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Postby Tev » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:36 pm

Corlas wrote:
Korangar wrote:Something like...this?

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... hp?t=11146

People seemed to not be thrilled with it, or at least the vocal ones weren't. But the simple fact is, it rewards you for being a better tank, unlike the current model.


Something like that would be great yeah. Although the more I think about it, the more I think something active and not reactive would be better. This would also allow for help when trying to keep secondary aggro, or when soloing, or DPSing on fights that you're not tanking or that don't need a tank.

In fights like Shade in Kara on my Warrior I can put on DPS gear, go into Berserker stance and have a lot of a fun. On my Pally when he's Prot, I can either do crappy heals that my healers already have taken care of and so not contribute at all, or do crappy damage while hoarding my mana and being afraid to use any abilities.

I realize things will change a lot in Lich King, but I can't really see how Prot's mana issues will be solved. I can see how Ret's will be. I can see how Holy's (very limited) mana problems are solved, but Prot still seems to be reliant on others. Even something as simple as a good amount of MP/5 based on a tanking stat would be great.


The Dual Spec idea pretty much solves your entire problem in 1 blow... instead of being prot with a healing set, you switch to... holy with a healing set, now your not healing at 40~50% of the other healers, your at 80%+ and contributing a great deal. Or you switch to ret and help the raid with extra damage and judging for mana with Judgment of the Wise :)

As for the holy shield idea, it is a great one imo. For tanking we can get our mana back much more consistantly, with SA for the big heavy hitting bosses and HS blocks for trash and instances were 'overgeared' for.
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Postby Corlas » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:40 pm

Tev wrote:The Dual Spec idea pretty much solves your entire problem in 1 blow... instead of being prot with a healing set, you switch to... holy with a healing set, now your not healing at 40~50% of the other healers, your at 80%+ and contributing a great deal. Or you switch to ret and help the raid with extra damage and judging for mana with Judgment of the Wise :)


Depending on how it works, maybe sorta. :) I think giving all specs more versatility, like Death Knights and Feral Druids, is a better solution than expecting people to respec on the fly to suit an encounter. If nothing else, it gives your character a much less... multiple personality vibe.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:39 pm

Nich wrote:
Lore wrote:Spiritual Attunement + JoW scaling = winnar

Has anyone run some numbers to check average mana returned from JoW, in BC and in WotLK?

ie does JoW scaling make up for the 'can't proc more than once ever x seconds' component.


Sure, from the sticky:

Judgment of Wisdom - JoW: restores mana based on the Paladin’s attack power and spell power, the effect can not trigger more than once every 4 seconds. 50% chance to proc

Judgment of Wisdom proc: Mana gained = 9% * AP + 9% * SP
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:28 pm

Karock wrote:
Dawnseeker wrote:
Karock wrote:
Lore wrote:Spiritual Attunement + JoW scaling = winnar


The question is will JoW be enough to put us on par with warriors trying to maintain second threat on a mob?

At least now we won't have to pick between JoW and judging SotC if there's no ret paladin in the raid.


Don't forget, Hand of Sacrifice will also help us with this (offtanking that is). :)


As should Divine Guardian.


If you pick up that talent and it causes damage (which I'm hearing it doesn't) then you kill your new Divine Protection mini shield wall.
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:09 pm

Fridmarr wrote:If you pick up that talent and it causes damage (which I'm hearing it doesn't) then you kill your new Divine Protection mini shield wall.


I believe the talent applies to divine *shield*, whereas Divine Protection is a separate skill -- and thus I believe should be unaffected. Now, if they make the talent affect both, they I agree, it'd be a waste.

I have few enough points to invest that I think I'll skip it for now.
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Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:23 am

Talent does apply to both Divine Shield and Divine Protection now. Honestly, I don't think it'll make a big difference unless there's a lot of damage flying around raid-wide. Small amounts of damage going to other players, the mitigation from DP + DG might even be worth it, since you'd still be taking much-reduced damage while helpnig out the whole group.
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:59 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Talent does apply to both Divine Shield and Divine Protection now. Honestly, I don't think it'll make a big difference unless there's a lot of damage flying around raid-wide. Small amounts of damage going to other players, the mitigation from DP + DG might even be worth it, since you'd still be taking much-reduced damage while helpnig out the whole group.


I agree. We have several folks throwing out dooms day prophecies about how DG will remove the viability of DP, citing specific examples as: I meant to save myself but I insta-gibbed myself instead. Until we see this happen often, I don't buy it.
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Postby Karock » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:29 am

Last I saw Divine Protection has been removed from the blizzard talent calculator from the talent's tooltip. I assume that their intent is to not have the two connected.
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Postby Jonlo » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:33 am

Lemondish wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Talent does apply to both Divine Shield and Divine Protection now. Honestly, I don't think it'll make a big difference unless there's a lot of damage flying around raid-wide. Small amounts of damage going to other players, the mitigation from DP + DG might even be worth it, since you'd still be taking much-reduced damage while helpnig out the whole group.


I agree. We have several folks throwing out dooms day prophecies about how DG will remove the viability of DP, citing specific examples as: I meant to save myself but I insta-gibbed myself instead. Until we see this happen often, I don't buy it.


RoS P3, Mother Sharaz,, Bloodboil, Kalecgos, Brutallus, M'uru are just some current fights at the T6 level where DP and DG combined will gib you very instantly at the wrong time.

At the lvl 80 raiding level, I'm not sure yet.
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Postby Extermi » Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:47 am

My take on that one is a bit different. First, independent on how many specs there are and what the cost or effort is to change, I do not want to. I play on a RP realm, my Paladin is a holy knight and does not in a few minutes become a plate healer or melee frenzy. I would expect blizzard to allow me to fill another role in the course of an evening, but I wont respec for it, just equip another weapon or gear pieces. Call me whatever you like but I dont play this for efficiency (I would have rerolled a warrior long ago if it wasnt for the RP aspect).

Second, on manareg, you must be kidding. If you over gear a place defense-wise, just swap in some healing or DPS plate, even of the same item level, and be fine - you make huge amounts of aggro and damage more than in your normal tank plate, have a larger mana pool (in case of healing plate), showing your DD folks what true aggro is. Every tank class can do this, so we can. Un-equipping pants or taking crap gear is an option only if you really did not collect DPS or healing gear, and that is really a bad option - sitting down or unequipping the shield is much better also stats-wise, if it really comes to this.

I truly believe the death knights have it worse, their aggro comes from runic energy and this is a constant for 5 mans and raids, really difficult to balance properly - while warriors, paladins and to some extent druids get to their full potential when taking lots of damage.

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Postby Lemondish » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:56 pm

Jonlo wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Talent does apply to both Divine Shield and Divine Protection now. Honestly, I don't think it'll make a big difference unless there's a lot of damage flying around raid-wide. Small amounts of damage going to other players, the mitigation from DP + DG might even be worth it, since you'd still be taking much-reduced damage while helpnig out the whole group.


I agree. We have several folks throwing out dooms day prophecies about how DG will remove the viability of DP, citing specific examples as: I meant to save myself but I insta-gibbed myself instead. Until we see this happen often, I don't buy it.


RoS P3, Mother Sharaz,, Bloodboil, Kalecgos, Brutallus, M'uru are just some current fights at the T6 level where DP and DG combined will gib you very instantly at the wrong time.

At the lvl 80 raiding level, I'm not sure yet.


Good thing then that our tank healers would have stronger, faster, and harder heals to off set that level of damage.

A Holy Paladin in Wrath could easily time his Divine Favor, Holy Shock, Holy Light to coincide with the increase in damage the Paladin would take. This is just ONE healer.
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