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Blizz, Raiding "nerfs", and Wrath

All things related to the expansion

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Postby PsiVen » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:47 am

Arcand wrote:
Karock wrote:
Arcand wrote:...which I wouldn't consider a terrible emergency, but I know I'm outvoted.


Why is that? You think that people who will min/max their characters and raids shouldn't also have the fun of a challenge?


If I were building the game, challenging the min/max demographic would not be nearly as high a priority to me as making sure that most of the people get to see most of the stuff.


The raiding community is the min/max demographic. I know you probably mean extremists like Nihilum, but it only seems like they aren't being challenged because you didn't watch them wipe 60 hours a week on the PTR.

Anyway you are correct that it's not a terrible emergency, as they are staggering the release of raid content so that the high-end guilds will have more evenly distributed farm time and generally more competition. Everybody will be happy... If they don't screw it up again.
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Postby Hollyhell » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:59 am

Arcand wrote:
Karock wrote:
Arcand wrote:...which I wouldn't consider a terrible emergency, but I know I'm outvoted.


Why is that? You think that people who will min/max their characters and raids shouldn't also have the fun of a challenge?


If I were building the game, challenging the min/max demographic would not be nearly as high a priority to me as making sure that most of the people get to see most of the stuff.


This is why they are doing 10 and 25 mans of the same dungeons.
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Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:06 am

It's...THE ONE HORSEMAN!!! :D
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:18 am

Arcand wrote:It's...THE ONE HORSEMAN!!! :D


LOL :)

I could see something where you had 4 giving different (stacking?) debuffs, so that you wouldn't want a single tank for all of them ... that would let you have offtanks from a warrior, shaman's elemental (can they be sicced on a specific target?), a ret paladin with a shield, a DK, a feral, heck maybe even a hunter's pet. Heck, one could even be kited. (JoJustice, frost trap, etc)

I could see 4 horsemen tuned in some way to support only 1 "main" tank.
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Postby Leidus » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:23 am

Kelaan wrote:
Arcand wrote:It's...THE ONE HORSEMAN!!! :D


LOL :)

I could see something where you had 4 giving different (stacking?) debuffs, so that you wouldn't want a single tank for all of them ... that would let you have offtanks from a warrior, shaman's elemental (can they be sicced on a specific target?), a ret paladin with a shield, a DK, a feral, heck maybe even a hunter's pet. Heck, one could even be kited. (JoJustice, frost trap, etc)

I could see 4 horsemen tuned in some way to support only 1 "main" tank.


Pfft. They made Holy Wrath instant cast for a reason.
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Postby agamemnoch » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:24 am

Kelaan wrote:
Arcand wrote:It's...THE ONE HORSEMAN!!! :D


LOL :)

I could see something where you had 4 giving different (stacking?) debuffs, so that you wouldn't want a single tank for all of them ... that would let you have offtanks from a warrior, shaman's elemental (can they be sicced on a specific target?), a ret paladin with a shield, a DK, a feral, heck maybe even a hunter's pet. Heck, one could even be kited. (JoJustice, frost trap, etc)

I could see 4 horsemen tuned in some way to support only 1 "main" tank.


How about if you had to finish 1 by a certain timer before the 2nd, and then the 3d and then the 4th showed up.


That would be doable with 1 or maybe 2 tanks.
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Postby Aleriya » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:09 pm

imo the biggest issue is how consumables compare to gear. What's better, a T6 raider with no consumables, or a T4 raider with everything available? How many tiers of gear should consumables be worth?

My blue-and-Kara geared mage went to BT the other day and I got #1 on the damage meter for the first few bosses because I was flasked and potted while the rest of the raid didn't bother for the easy bosses. That was a shock. I didn't think it was possible for a raider with such poor gear to do T6 content so well. I never realized how little gear is actually worth compared to consumables.

If Blizzard intends to remove attunement requirements and base tiered instances solely on difficulty, it's pretty much required to nerf consumables in some way. Either that or casual raiders will be required to min/max and use full consumables even for the introductory raid content, which I doubt would fly with Blizzard.
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:26 pm

Aleriya wrote:imo the biggest issue is how consumables compare to gear. What's better, a T6 raider with no consumables, or a T4 raider with everything available? How many tiers of gear should consumables be worth?

Back when BC was coming out, a poster at EJ (Gurgthock?) posted a really awesome chart that compared stats of various tier gear (1, 2, 3), and then stats with consumables ... and consumables would give around a tier or even two (I think?)'s benefits.

Mana potions are 100 mp5 when chain-chugged (133 if you're a fel-mana addicted hunter) -- which is another 50% or so of your healers' effective mana regen, esp in T4. DPS flasks are around a 1.5 tier upgrade in AP for hunters, for example. I'm sure we will still see flasks (as otherwise what's the point?), but I do like that they seem to be working more to prevent pigeonholing of professions and potion-drinking.
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Postby Hollyhell » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:36 pm

Aleriya wrote:imo the biggest issue is how consumables compare to gear. What's better, a T6 raider with no consumables, or a T4 raider with everything available? How many tiers of gear should consumables be worth?

My blue-and-Kara geared mage went to BT the other day and I got #1 on the damage meter for the first few bosses because I was flasked and potted while the rest of the raid didn't bother for the easy bosses. That was a shock. I didn't think it was possible for a raider with such poor gear to do T6 content so well. I never realized how little gear is actually worth compared to consumables.

If Blizzard intends to remove attunement requirements and base tiered instances solely on difficulty, it's pretty much required to nerf consumables in some way. Either that or casual raiders will be required to min/max and use full consumables even for the introductory raid content, which I doubt would fly with Blizzard.


If you look at straight tier gear and stats (int, stam, etc), there really isn't a giant jump from one tier to the next.

The BIG jump comes from the set bonuses, sockets, and things like spell dmg, crit rating, etc.

From t5 to t6 for holy shoulders: you gain: 3 int, 2 spell crit, 8 mp5, and 9 healing.

From t4 to t6: 3 stam, 5 int, 20 healing, 18 crit rating, and 3 mp5.

This, of course, excludes sockets and socket bonuses.

Overall, not a huge, huge difference.

You're going to see big differences in your weapons and trinkets.
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Postby Morganim » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:58 am

Dawnseeker wrote:I definitely applaud the change here.
If a class is having to chug mana pots just to sustain hps, dps (or tps) for up to 10 mins then something is wrong, some classes already have ways of making their mana last almost indefinitely, resto druids with a high amount of spirit regen and innervate, shammies with shamanistic rage / mana tide, warlocks with lifetap and tankadins (theoretically) with spiritual attunement. It seems each class/spec will have better tools to make their mana last in wrath.
Looking forward to the shadowpriest changes especially, improved spirit tap <3


ATM in sunwell, pretty much all healers bar resto druids have to chain mana pot, casters do with no spriest etc, because there regen cannot handle the raw HPS required without them. Bliz designed it this way. (shamans as well)

All it means now imo is that content + classes will be changed to add potions into there spells, coincidence that the pally mana spell and potion nerf hit at the exact same time.

At the same time im sure the want to see more proffestions used
In high end content (bar a few selfish idiots usually)
All dps are LW's
All healers are alchemists

A lot of casters/healers have leveled enchanting for there rings (if there rich enough)
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