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Blizz, Raiding "nerfs", and Wrath

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Postby Hollyhell » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:15 am

PsiVen wrote:I disagree, I think fights like Brutallus and M'uru are perfect examples of Blizzard designing encounters assuming drums and combat pots. They've been standard issue in high-end progression since the consumable nerf, before which every encounter was designed around max consumables.


I agree. It's like Blizz saying "We designed Chromaggus around Decursive".
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Postby PsiVen » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:16 am

Arcand wrote:
Karock wrote:Blizz limits buffs because they want them not to be essential to fights. When Blizzard designs a fight they design it for a min/maxed raid using full consumables, because if they don't that raid will destroy the content.


...which I wouldn't consider a terrible emergency, but I know I'm outvoted.


Personally I am a big fan of the "too hard now, nerf later" model of raid tuning. The trick that TBC missed is to do it on the later bosses, make it less expensive to have full buffs (done), and make sure that it's "hard" not "pretty much impossible" ala Vashj.
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Re: Blizz, Raiding "nerfs", and Wrath

Postby Lore » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:16 am

Hollyhell wrote:They nerf the content, as well as the consumables (at the same time). Is there an actual correlation or just coincidence?


It was an actual correlation. They even posted an announcement in the Profession forums saying as much. "Yes we're nerfing Alchemy, we're nerfing it so raiders don't have to spend tons of gold every night, and we're going to nerf the content as well to match it."

Also: Actual bugs with encounters (KT despawning, for example) have nothing to do with the tuning.
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Postby Hollyhell » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:16 am

Lore wrote:
It may not be "absolutely 100% required or you'll never kill this boss", but it certainly makes things a lot easier, and as long as that's the case it might as well be.

Think about it. Say you're a raid leader. Who would you rather have in your raid, the Priest who chain chugs potions and keeps up heals the entire fight, or the Priest who runs out of mana 4 minutes in? The Rogue who chain chugs Haste potions and puts out 2400 DPS, or the Rogue who doesn't and only puts out 2000? The tank who chain chugs Ironshields and is easier to heal, or the tank who doesn't and sucks up more healing?


I think a lot of it depends on how balanced the raid encounters are. We know how bosses in Naxx hit, but what about the new ones?
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:17 am

Hollyhell wrote:
Nilaus wrote:
Chucking potions every 2 min has become mandatory for many classes and drum rotations are all but required in Sunwell.

It is poor game design and by limiting these buffs they are able to tune the encounters without assuming 100 MP5 from potions and constant 80 Haste to everyone.


And this is basically my point. Would Brut be down if you couldn't chain pot and chain drums? He would be, but only by guilds that have had illidan on farm for quite a while. I'd like to see a guild go in and see if they could down Brut with stand buffs, 1 pot, and 3 drums per group over the 6 minutes.


Whatever is possible becomes what's required when it comes to consumables on progression content. Because chain potting and chain drumming is possible, that's what the encounter is tuned to. If you remove or reduce the pots as a factor and tune bosses with that taken into account, the only difference is the you're not having to shell out as much money per boss attempt and in the case of drums not forced into one particular profession.

People tried to make the same argument you're making now when they imposed the battle/guardian elixir limit. In the end though that change didn't appreciably slow down progression. What it did you was make raiding a lot more fun by drastically cutting down on the amount of farming needed to raid competitively.

Any change which helps people to spend less time farming for cash and more time playing whatever aspect on the game they enjoy is a positive one.
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Re: Blizz, Raiding "nerfs", and Wrath

Postby Hollyhell » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:17 am

Lore wrote:
Hollyhell wrote:They nerf the content, as well as the consumables (at the same time). Is there an actual correlation or just coincidence?


It was an actual correlation. They even posted an announcement in the Profession forums saying as much. "Yes we're nerfing Alchemy, we're nerfing it so raiders don't have to spend tons of gold every night, and we're going to nerf the content as well to match it."

Also: Actual bugs with encounters (KT despawning, for example) have nothing to do with the tuning.


Ah, didn't know that part of it. I like that they are trying to make it "easier" gold and time spent wise, but is that realllly what they are doing? Will you just make up the saved gold in consumables on lost gold in repairs?

And yeah, I know that KT was a bug, but it was an example.
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Postby Karock » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:22 am

Arcand wrote:...which I wouldn't consider a terrible emergency, but I know I'm outvoted.


Why is that? You think that people who will min/max their characters and raids shouldn't also have the fun of a challenge?

Honestly since on a lot of fights i rely on chaining super mana pots, I hope that they introduce a better way for me to not go OOM while tanking.
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:23 am

Drumming up ancient encounters and applying them to modern encounter design doesn't really work either. In reality, M'uru (and Kil'jaeden, but I haven't seen him yet) are the only Sunwell fights to have been nerfed on Live servers, and they were only nerfed because so many guilds struggled for so long on those fights.

I haven't seen or heard any changes in how repair money is calculated, and with the massive inflation that comes with expansions I highly doubt we'll jump from spending 30 minutes of dailies' worth of gold on repairs to 2 hours worth. Remember: repair costs are solid, and determined by Blizzard, while consumable costs are determined by the player economy.

As someone who was raiding 5 nights a week for the first Alchemy nerf, and who used to spend more time farming than actually raiding, this is a very good change.
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Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:27 am

Karock wrote:
Arcand wrote:...which I wouldn't consider a terrible emergency, but I know I'm outvoted.


Why is that? You think that people who will min/max their characters and raids shouldn't also have the fun of a challenge?


If I were building the game, challenging the min/max demographic would not be nearly as high a priority to me as making sure that most of the people get to see most of the stuff.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:29 am

Arcand wrote:If I were building the game, challenging the min/max demographic would not be nearly as high a priority to me as making sure that most of the people get to see most of the stuff.


....but how is that related to reducing the need for consumables? If anything, it makes raiding more accessible, as you don't have to take up farming as a second job to raid like you used to.
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:30 am

Arcand wrote:
Karock wrote:
Arcand wrote:...which I wouldn't consider a terrible emergency, but I know I'm outvoted.


Why is that? You think that people who will min/max their characters and raids shouldn't also have the fun of a challenge?


If I were building the game, challenging the min/max demographic would not be nearly as high a priority to me as making sure that most of the people get to see most of the stuff.


This change accomplishes both. Everybody wins!

Except Alchemists who try to sell potions on the AH, but it's always been better to just sell the herbs anyway (at least on every server I've played on).
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Postby Karock » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:31 am

I would say "they're not mutually exclusive" but other people seem to have replied before me =P
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:33 am

Lore wrote:This change accomplishes both. Everybody wins!

Except Alchemists who try to sell potions on the AH, but it's always been better to just sell the herbs anyway (at least on every server I've played on).


Agreed. I'm an alchemist, and I'm still happy when I see my profession "nerfed" by changes like this. Also, Inscription should keep the market for herbs healthy regardless of what happens to Alchemy :)
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Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:36 am

Dorvan wrote:
Arcand wrote:If I were building the game, challenging the min/max demographic would not be nearly as high a priority to me as making sure that most of the people get to see most of the stuff.


....but how is that related to reducing the need for consumables? If anything, it makes raiding more accessible, as you don't have to take up farming as a second job to raid like you used to.


Yes, definitely. I was pleased to see the consumables 'capped' for exactly this reason.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:38 am

Like it's already been said... The whole point in nerfing consumable usage is so you do'nt spend half a week farming the consumables.

The encounters won't be specifically harder or easier. Gear checks will be built around people only using 1 consumable.
IMO It's a good change. It doesn't matter that "We can't stack haste the whole fight"... We don't need to.
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