non-tanking raid roles as prot

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non-tanking raid roles as prot

Postby Nich » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:45 pm

Dorvan wrote:I also maintain that unless we see strong evidence of a shift in encounter design philosophy, off-DPS is a stronger role for tanks than off-healing, and we're significantly better at off-DPS in WotLK than we were in TBC.

^

With the simplified judgement and blessings available, it seems like Blizzard are aiming at 3 pallies in a raid being the standard number. If there are enough healers available from other classes to let a pally from each spec into the raid, regularly, then ideally we'd have something to contribute when not actively tanking (apart from benchwarming), rather than having spare pallies around to sub in, just to keep the buffs stable. Assuming some other pally is sitting around with BoK.

If they keep things as highly-tuned as Sunwell Plateau, I'm going to wager it'll continue to be unjustifiable to have us in the raid as a debuff bot, 'just in case' something drops that we need. Especially with us not even being able to try and justify a raid spot with JoW (hi, ranged judgements) when it'll scale so much better from a ret pally.


Are Blizzard likely to push us towards off-helaing or off-DPS? Which would we prefer? Which do you think would work better, assuming no major changes to encounter design?


(I wonder just what level of off-DPS we'd bring if they changed HotR to allow using 2hers, and if it'd make up for SotR not being usable outside of gear-swapping macros)
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Re: non-tanking raid roles as prot

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:48 pm

Nich wrote:
Dorvan wrote:I also maintain that unless we see strong evidence of a shift in encounter design philosophy, off-DPS is a stronger role for tanks than off-healing, and we're significantly better at off-DPS in WotLK than we were in TBC.

^

With the simplified judgement and blessings available, it seems like Blizzard are aiming at 3 pallies in a raid being the standard number. If there are enough healers available from other classes to let a pally from each spec into the raid, regularly, then ideally we'd have something to contribute when not actively tanking (apart from benchwarming), rather than having spare pallies around to sub in, just to keep the buffs stable. Assuming some other pally is sitting around with BoK.


Are Blizzard likely to push us towards off-helaing or off-DPS? Which would we prefer? Which do you think would work better, assuming no major changes to encounter design?


(I wonder just what level of off-DPS we'd bring if they changed HotR to allow using 2hers, and if it'd make up for SotR not being usable outside of gear-swapping macros)


I'm done flash spamming. If blizzard wants me to offheal at times, then they need to make a little bit more enjoyable. Though, I'm not sure our DPS will be good enough yet, that's pretty hard to tell at this point. Maybe making HotR work with a 2hander equipped would help.
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Re: non-tanking raid roles as prot

Postby Lemondish » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:28 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I'm done flash spamming. If blizzard wants me to offheal at times, then they need to make a little bit more enjoyable. Though, I'm not sure our DPS will be good enough yet, that's pretty hard to tell at this point. Maybe making HotR work with a 2hander equipped would help.


Biggest issue I see with that is the fact that its technically 100% Holy damage, so it'll hit damn hard with no mitigation when slingin' a two hander. The wording within the skill makes it seem as if it also has a threat component added to it on top of the Holy Damage that contributes to Righteous Fury. Since Protection Paladins don't have a straight up aggro reduction, it'd be a pain in the ass to DPS and not accidentally tank. Of perhaps the damage will be so depressingly low that it won't matter lol
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Postby Isabelli » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:34 pm

I've heard from worldofraids that Blizzard is allowing us to have a secondary respec available so it is easier on hybrids to change rolls in raids. Now it still doesn't solve the problem with on the fly switching (unless your raid is ok with you taking 5 minutes to go respec).

I don't see how Blizzard would condone a use of a 2-Hander with Hammer of the Righteous. It would essentially be a watered down Divine Storm on a shorter cooldown.

For easier encounters, Buff/Debuff bot might be our role. But since alot of 25 mans will definitely have a Ret Paladin, our job dwindles down to keeping up Judgment of the Just. I think healing will probably be our primary duty when not tanking. Druids and Deathknights pretty much cover the tanking/dps hybrid role.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love some DEEPZ while tanking...who knows maybe ShoR/HotR may be what lets us do that.
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Re: non-tanking raid roles as prot

Postby SmurfZG » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:36 pm

Lemondish wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I'm done flash spamming. If blizzard wants me to offheal at times, then they need to make a little bit more enjoyable. Though, I'm not sure our DPS will be good enough yet, that's pretty hard to tell at this point. Maybe making HotR work with a 2hander equipped would help.


Biggest issue I see with that is the fact that its technically 100% Holy damage, so it'll hit damn hard with no mitigation when slingin' a two hander. The wording within the skill makes it seem as if it also has a threat component added to it on top of the Holy Damage that contributes to Righteous Fury. Since Protection Paladins don't have a straight up aggro reduction, it'd be a pain in the ass to DPS and not accidentally tank. Of perhaps the damage will be so depressingly low that it won't matter lol


or you could just turn off RF...
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Re: non-tanking raid roles as prot

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:39 pm

Lemondish wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I'm done flash spamming. If blizzard wants me to offheal at times, then they need to make a little bit more enjoyable. Though, I'm not sure our DPS will be good enough yet, that's pretty hard to tell at this point. Maybe making HotR work with a 2hander equipped would help.


Biggest issue I see with that is the fact that its technically 100% Holy damage, so it'll hit damn hard with no mitigation when slingin' a two hander. The wording within the skill makes it seem as if it also has a threat component added to it on top of the Holy Damage that contributes to Righteous Fury. Since Protection Paladins don't have a straight up aggro reduction, it'd be a pain in the ass to DPS and not accidentally tank. Of perhaps the damage will be so depressingly low that it won't matter lol


Take off RF and it won't be a problem threat wise. It's basically about the same as a present day ret build, without extra crit, vengence, 2hand spec, Sanctity Aura, and Crusade. If aggro is a problem, then you should be the one tanking :).
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Postby Nich » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:02 pm

Ah, +high threat on hammer and shield, forgot about that.

If our DPS is low enough that we're threat capped with a sword and board, even without RF up, is it going to be meaningly useful? Even in dps plate, with none of the ret talents to push more damage out, I'm not sure how useful SoR autoattacking will be.


(hopefully more useful than FoL spamming, but hey...)
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:41 pm

Nich wrote:Ah, +high threat on hammer and shield, forgot about that.

If our DPS is low enough that we're threat capped with a sword and board, even without RF up, is it going to be meaningly useful? Even in dps plate, with none of the ret talents to push more damage out, I'm not sure how useful SoR autoattacking will be.


(hopefully more useful than FoL spamming, but hey...)


Again, if you are able to pull aggro without RF up, then why the heck are you not the one that's tanking?
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Postby Nich » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:03 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Nich wrote:Ah, +high threat on hammer and shield, forgot about that.

If our DPS is low enough that we're threat capped with a sword and board, even without RF up, is it going to be meaningly useful? Even in dps plate, with none of the ret talents to push more damage out, I'm not sure how useful SoR autoattacking will be.


(hopefully more useful than FoL spamming, but hey...)

Again, if you are able to pull aggro without RF up, then why the heck are you not the one that's tanking?

It might be a fight better suited to a warrior or druid tanking it, for whatever reason. ie just because we end up with stupid threat in dps plate gear, it's not something we should be tanking, and thus we need to provide something to justify still being in the raid.
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Postby Morganim » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:37 pm

From what i understand about the duel spec situatiion is, we will be able to hit a button and BAM, where full ret or full holy, hit your closet gnome button and suddenly your a dps when your not a tank
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:30 pm

Nich wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Nich wrote:Ah, +high threat on hammer and shield, forgot about that.

If our DPS is low enough that we're threat capped with a sword and board, even without RF up, is it going to be meaningly useful? Even in dps plate, with none of the ret talents to push more damage out, I'm not sure how useful SoR autoattacking will be.


(hopefully more useful than FoL spamming, but hey...)

Again, if you are able to pull aggro without RF up, then why the heck are you not the one that's tanking?

It might be a fight better suited to a warrior or druid tanking it, for whatever reason. ie just because we end up with stupid threat in dps plate gear, it's not something we should be tanking, and thus we need to provide something to justify still being in the raid.


I suppose it could be some sort of gimmick, but odds are if you are threat capped, so is your entire raid even with threat reduction talents, and in a very bad way. Threat is likely not our concern.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:59 am

Remember that there's no Salv anymore, so tank tps is already designed to work around it. Turning RF off will definitely not let us get threat capped on normal situations.
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