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Any hope that prot paladins can pvp in WotLK?

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Lore » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:10 am

I've actually always found myself pretty effective in duels if I max spell damage gear, though I'd get owned if anyone tried to mana burn.

There's a possibility that Prot Paladins could be good in PVP as incredibly hard-to-kill healers, and some of our talents have obvious PVP benefits (Divine Guardian).
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Postby Eaglestrike » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:45 am

We'll be better than we are currently. We shouldn't lose any of our PvP mitigation and we should gain some burst DPS since we can now Hammer/Shield/Judge at once as opposed to judge and melee, lol. And since we can gear for STR our normal melee strikes should be alright as well.

Won't be amazing, but we'll be slightly better than before.
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Postby bockhorn » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:51 am

Wakeman wrote:
Andryana wrote:I'm kind of hoping that rumour of being able to have 2 specs to switch from would be true.. i would put some healing gear and play a healer on BG's which i actually like.



I hope they will implement this feature too. Though I would still love to see prot paladins have role in pvp.


Do not hope.

They WILL implent it, they pretty much confirmed it today (www.worldofraids.com)
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:01 am

No.

But you'll definitely be ungankable. ShoR can crit for OVER NINE THOUSAAAAND
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Postby Angella » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:05 am

Ulushnar wrote:I actually thought about this just the now.

In the new edition of the Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game the tank classes have an ability known as "marking". Simply put if a marked mob doesn't attack the person who marked them, they have a penalty to hit and (in the case of Paladins) they take damage. It's been designed to model a computer RPG tank's taunt without explicitly forcing a monster or player to attack the the marker.

Something like that would be an interesting PVP ability for tanking classes, a debuff applied to a player that does bad stuff if they don't attack the debuffer.


This deserves a spot in the WoW suggestions forum. I can't see any reason why Blizz would be against giving tanks this kind of ability deep in the prot tree.
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Postby shifttusk » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:50 am

Except for making pvp rogues look bad prot has no place outside of flag running and tanking in av. Despite all the HP buffs and defense you gain in prot as well as our soon to be increased dmg attacks we still will fail badly. 70% pushback resistance > all prot survivability talents in pvp. The things important for survival on a raid boss are not the same things needed in pvp.
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Postby Splug » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:28 am

Prot paladins will continue to suffer from the same deficiencies ret paladins do now: no speed debuff, no interrupt/lockout mechanic. It'll be "better," but still not arena-caliber. A pvp-prot build might be quasi-feasible, but I'd still be skeptic about anything close to ideal.

Prot warriors actually look like they have the potential to be extremely annoying, and possibly viable in a 1 healer, 3.5 dps 5v5 team. If concussion blow and shockwave share DR (and they likely will), it'll be a bit trickier, but a multi-target stun with the same cooldown time as kidney shot, along with intercept/concussion on relatively short cooldowns as well, sounds like at the very least a powerful caster harassment tool. Also, the str->BV change will create itemization for the spec, which was previously one of the big problems.

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Postby elson » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:22 pm

Taking a look at some of the available talents I may be able to ressurect my pre-bc/post 2.0 monster healer build.

This was when playing a paladin in pvp was the most fun for me. Pre-nerf imp conc aura, pre-changed AD, and thanks to the honor system rank 14 gear for about a month of hillarity. It was about the only time I truly felt I had the power to outlast my opponents regardless of spec/class.

If I am unable to find a build that suits this purpose, I will most likely be stacking as much block value possibly can and running rampant in bg's slapping people with my shield.

Arena's though i'm going to agree won't be very favorable to us. We won't have the damage as of a class there specifically to do damage, and we lack the other tools to make up for the lack of damage. Certainly will be better than what it is now, but I wouldn't call it competitive.
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Postby snowwight » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:56 pm

As splug noted, prot warriors actually look pretty decent for pvp now - a variety of stuns and interrupts, including an aoe stun, an offensive dispel without talents, not to mention being able to remove their own snares and give 60% damage reduction on a much shorter cd than pain suppression. I'd wager blizzard still does want every spec to at least be somewhat viable in pvp.

The reason we don't work as well as they do:
1. Our utility abilities are not unique to our spec. The only utility in deep prot is avenger's shield - a snare.
2. Mana < rage for a tank in pvp.
3. Everything is dispellable.
4. We have no mitigation abilities against casters, or interrupts.

Note they changed avenger's shield daze duration to 10 seconds. Since that actually makes it more annoying to use in pve, I can only assume that was an attempt at giving us slightly(and I do mean slight) more pvp utility.

I'm mind-boggled there is still no spell interruption, reflection, absorption, silence or any other sort of anti-caster mechanic in deep prot. For some reason they seem to think it will be game-breaking to give paladins any sort of useful ability to deal with casters. I guess we have yet to see what they plan to do with BoSanc.
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Postby Boldbeard » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:04 pm

I would love to put PvP Prot to the test.

-30 sec HoJ (maybe geared lower with set bonus?)
-10 sec daz with AS, with .5 cast time (add GbtL and SotT...)
-SotR
-HotR
-HS (for any rogue dumb enough to try)
-Stoicism
-Hand/Blessing segregation
-Divine Guardian ( to help everyone not just you)
-Sacred Duty (with our melee attacks meaning something now...)
-Judgements of the Just

Holy Talent options:

-Higher damage Seals
-Less heal interuption
-Unyielding Faith
-Impr LoH (both talent and base spell changes)

Ret Talent options:

-Vindication (debuff synergy with JoJ)
-Conviction (for all heals/attacks, synergy with TbtL)
-Crusade (a little deep in Ret)
-Eye for an Eye (a little deep also)
-Seal of Command (pending dmg comparisons vs SoM/B/R)
-2H Wpn Spec ( j/k :P )


Overall, the way things currently look is that prot pallies are the most proactive we've ever been. Our single biggest limitation in PvP has been our reactivity. No one attacks us, we are pointless. Now we have proactivity as a spec, improved stunning/debuffing ability and better itemization as a class, and the most synergy we've ever had as a class.

Also, re: BV. I'm guessing alot of dps classes in PvP are going to have alot of ignore armor and expertise ratings. This reduced effects of Armor and reduces Parry/Dodge, am I right?? This would make Blocking very important as dmg mitigation in PvP, right?? Add to that and our BV converts directly to Dmg, as said above.

Btw, SotR makes me want to just drop my 1H and go dual shields...
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Postby Splug » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:26 pm

The big crippling point prot warriors are going to hit is that they do not provide mortal strike, and damage (while much higher than previously) is still fairly low. While they might work as a quasi-healer via stuns and intervene, at the end of the day it's not something you can rely on for steady damage, just a CC/intervene bot... though perhaps a very effective one.

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Postby Boldbeard » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:32 pm

snowwight wrote:I'm mind-boggled there is still no spell interruption, reflection, absorption, silence or any other sort of anti-caster mechanic in deep prot. For some reason they seem to think it will be game-breaking to give paladins any sort of useful ability to deal with casters. I guess we have yet to see what they plan to do with BoSanc.


I think HoJ with its new 30 sec talented cooldown is gonna be our interupt. Counterspell is 30 seconds and mages can pwn casters with CS.

We have Hand of Freedom (which doesnt remove blessings). We also have cleanse with is a decent solution to alot of things casters throw our way.

We can aura dance, for whatever that's worth.

We still also have Sacred Duty which has a great synergy with Divine Guardian. These two talents take DS from a spell used to piss off everyone in the BG/Arena because you heal up to only die anyways, to something meaningful for your party and used for something other than full HP healing.

With SD, DS autoattack continues (we have AP now) and depending on cooldown timing, we can get out 2 SotR's and 2 HotR's while under DS. Not to mention the ever class HoJ+consecrate, plus judge and seal dmg. With Prot pallies having proactive abilities, bubbling is no longer just for chain healing.
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Postby Wakeman » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:49 am

Right, the new Divine Guardian maybe able to give us an unique function in pvp. If only I can test this out myself....
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Postby Ciandin » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:19 am

Andryana wrote:I'm pretty sure it's only a pull, but anyway it will fun to see that on BG's.

It gotta have some diminishing returns.. or else a player could be a ping-pong ball.


If its an instant cast, you could cast it on an opposing player while jumping off the ledge in AB, pulling your opponent off with you, and then bubble ftw!
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Postby Wakeman » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:23 pm

Ciandin wrote:
Andryana wrote:I'm pretty sure it's only a pull, but anyway it will fun to see that on BG's.

It gotta have some diminishing returns.. or else a player could be a ping-pong ball.


If its an instant cast, you could cast it on an opposing player while jumping off the ledge in AB, pulling your opponent off with you, and then bubble ftw!



Well, you have the two confused. Death Grip is Deathknight's ability and bubble is Paladin's.

Although cliff jumping + Death Grip + a certain cloak I can't remember that reduces fall damage might work. ;)
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